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Thread: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read more:

  1. #181
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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Who is taking positions on hate crime? Seems you're the one talking all about it every other post. Spud is in Australia, so he's not American. So who is left?
    People don't even know that one must establish prior, organized activities or personal collections, establishing that the crime WAS NOT PERSONAL for a hate crime charge. For a hate crime charge, the motive must, indeed, be political - basically, terrorism. If it was a personal thing or the person has no established history of hate activities, it is not a hate crime. Calling someone a Jew before you shoot them does not make a hate crime. They'd have to find anti-Jew history, activities, memberships or material in your possession (and the person can't really be someone you have a relationship with - that doesn't make any damn sense if you know anything about hate crime law); thus, establish that the crime, once again, was not personally, financially or otherwise motivated.


    It's can't be "oh, he turned into a Nazi today". No dude, you gotta establish that he is and was a Nazi with physical evidence and that's why he did it.


    Ignorance. All over the place.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 07-21-11 at 02:20 PM.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Who is taking positions on hate crime? Seems you're the one talking all about it every other post. Spud is in Australia, so he's not American. So who is left?
    No, no one has taken a position on hate crimes in this thread about hate crimes.
    Last edited by sangha; 07-21-11 at 09:29 PM.
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  3. #183
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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Actually, the man who kills a woman has less potential and actual societal effects than the man who kills a minority so they are still different. Hate crimes acknowledge these effects. You can debate whether or not it should acknowledge these effects, but it's pretty clear that hate crimes affect society more than non-hate crimes so, in one sense, they are "more important" not because the life hurt or taken is more valuable but because the crime itself had a larger impact on society - I think that impact should be noted. Moreover, the only people who would become more racially divided or "sexuality divided" because of hate crime laws are people who are racist and homophobic to begin with so I'm not buying that argument.
    Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with the concept of hate crime statutes and the protected status of certain individuals is automatically racist and homophobic? Because that is patently untrue.

    I do not expect you to "buy" my argument, because I'm not actually arguing with you. Rather, I'm expressing an opinion on hate-crime statutes that is different from your position, and explaining my reasoning. You do not accept my reasoning; I do not accept yours.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I don't have time ow to go googling.
    Then do not state as fact that women have special status under hate crimes statutes based solely on their gender when there has not been a single case of a mysoginist murderer being charged with a hate crime.

    No, they are not the same exact murder. One is motivated by bias, and one is not. And we have a long tradition of punishing the murders of one class of people more harshly than others. I already gave an example of that. You are free to disapprove of that.
    Yes, they are the exact same murder. One murder is based upon hatred of women; the other is based upon hatred of minoritites, yet one is prosecuted as a hate crime and one is not. The law thus declares that the murder of females based solely upon their gender is less important to society than the murder of minorities based solely upon their race/religion/ethnicity/sexual orientation. If you do not see the dicotomy of such "special" status in a free and equal society, then we will have to agree to disagree.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    In your example, the murderer would get charged with 1st degree murder for both situation simply because his bias drove him to commit the act. Without the hate crime laws, they perp could be charged for a lesser crime as it may be seen as 2nd degree or manslaughter depending on how the encounter occurred.

    So the fact is, hate crime laws equalize the law against those that make a point to target people because of some bias and charges them appropriately. If you say you hate Mexicans and go out of your way to have conflicts with them that eventually leads to you murdering a person of Mexican descend, isn't that pre-meditated? Shouldn't the prep receive a harsher penalty for the crime as you would if you stalked and murdered women? You can't call it manslaughter can you because the perp made every effort to create a situation where this would occur or just showed he was willing to harm a person because of his bias alone.

    I think being against hate crime laws is to be against fairness of the law. State of mind is always relevant.
    So you are saying in the bolded part that murdering a person of Mexican descent because one hates Mexican should be punished more harshly than a crime where one merely stalked and murdered women, even though all the crimes were premeditated? This is fairness to you... why? Because stalking and murdering women because one hates women is less of a crime against society than murdering a minority because one hates minorities?

    I disagree. Premeditated murder is premeditated murder. The law should judge them equally.
    Last edited by DiAnna; 07-21-11 at 11:28 PM.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Umm... I don't understand hate crime laws at all. I know their meant for if you kill someone of another race under suspicion of "hating them".... but people who commit crimes against others of the same race still hate that person..... So aren't all violent crimes technically "Hate crimes"? Because last I checked you don't shoot somebody you like. You don't just walk up to your buddy and be like "What's up" and shoot them. It doesn't happen.. All violent crimes are fueled by hate, no matter the race of the victim, so I find hate crime laws rather stupid.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by Krasche View Post
    Umm... I don't understand hate crime laws at all. I know their meant for if you kill someone of another race under suspicion of "hating them".... but people who commit crimes against others of the same race still hate that person..... So aren't all violent crimes technically "Hate crimes"? Because last I checked you don't shoot somebody you like. You don't just walk up to your buddy and be like "What's up" and shoot them. It doesn't happen.. All violent crimes are fueled by hate, no matter the race of the victim, so I find hate crime laws rather stupid.
    Hate crimes are based on hating entire groups, not hating individuals, so no, not all murders are hate crimes.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with the concept of hate crime statutes and the protected status of certain individuals is automatically racist and homophobic? Because that is patently untrue.
    Um no, I'm not. I said that anyone who becomes more racially divided because of the existence of hate crimes is already racist to begin with so the idea hate crime legislation increases racial division matters is irrelevant to me when considering it's effect on society.

    I do not expect you to "buy" my argument, because I'm not actually arguing with you. Rather, I'm expressing an opinion on hate-crime statutes that is different from your position, and explaining my reasoning. You do not accept my reasoning; I do not accept yours.
    No, I accept anyone's belief that hate crime legislation should not exist even if I do not subscribe to them. What I do not accept is your refusal to acknowledge the fact that hate crimes are not "equal" to non-hate crimes. Hate crimes have greater actual and potential societal effects than non-hate crimes. To deny this is to deny reality.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 07-22-11 at 01:10 AM.

  9. #189
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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Hate crimes are based on hating entire groups, not hating individuals, so no, not all murders are hate crimes.
    Fair enough. But they didn't kill that entire group, they killed one man who happened to be in that group. The crime is the same regardless of motive.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by Krasche View Post
    Fair enough. But they didn't kill that entire group, they killed one man who happened to be in that group. The crime is the same regardless of motive.
    Not really. Hate crimes have larger potential and actual societal effects than non-hate crimes.

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