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Thread: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read more:

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Right, but in a court of law, they don't get to examine the accuseds' state of mind because they can't read minds. All they can do is to examine the evidence (and the hypothetical provided no evidence that the killing was motivated by jealousy). The killers yelling "You Jew!!" is evidence that can be used to show (but not prove) bias.
    Oh good grief.... It is his ****ing hypothetical, if he said it was because of jealousy than it was because of jealousy.

    Get a clue dude, your are going well out of your way to be annoying.
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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Hey! Jerk face :P
    See, it's OK tyo say that to me cause I'm Irish and I'm not really a people.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Infuriated by rejection and infuriated by race are not the same thing at all for many reasons. The former is specific to a person or action, the latter encompasses an entire population regardless of action. The former has little to no societal effects; the former has much greater actual and potential societal effects. Moreover, both cases could be 1st degree or 2nd degree murder depending on whether it's premeditated or not. Hate crime laws acknowledge the fact that crimes based on race, gender, sexuality, etc. are not equal to non-hate based crimes. They aren't equal no matter how you swing it.
    I disagree, they are completely equal. A man who kills a woman because he hates women is no different from a man who kills a minority because he hates minorities. Hate crime laws might be a societal "feel good", but it is in reality a societal "inequalitizer" because it quite frankly makes the death of some victims more "heinous" than others for no other reason than the race, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity of the victim. That is not an example of the "law being blind". It's an example making the death of certain individuals more important under the eyes of the law than other individuals based upon discriminatory legal bias.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Oh good grief.... It is his ****ing hypothetical, if he said it was because of jealousy than it was because of jealousy.

    Get a clue dude, your are going well out of your way to be annoying.
    What you fail to acknowledge is that the jury will have no way of concluding that it was jealousy unless there is some evidence of this. As described, the hypothetical offered no evidence for that conclusion, therefore the jury will not be able to conclude that it was jealousy
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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I disagree, they are completely equal. A man who kills a woman because he hates women is no different from a man who kills a minority because he hates minorities.
    Women are just as much of a protected class as race and religion.

    Hate crime laws might be a societal "feel good", but it is in reality a societal "inequalitizer" because it quite frankly makes the death of some victims more "heinous" than others for no other reason than the race, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity of the victim. That is not an example of the "law being blind". It's an example making the death of certain individuals more important under the eyes of the law than other individuals based upon discriminatory legal bias.
    No, hate crime laws are a societal good. It has nothing to do with making people feel good. That is not the purpose of our criminal justice system. And our laws have always judged some types of crimes as more heinous than others. The law has distinguished between different classes of murder and assigned greater penalties to those it deems more deleterious to society at large and in some cases, distinguishes on the basis of who was murdered. For example, the murder of a police officer carries a greater sentence than killing a civilian.
    Last edited by sangha; 07-21-11 at 12:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Women are just as much of a protected class as race and religion.
    I'm aware that tens of thousands or more women are murdered in this country every year. I'm unaware of a single one prosecuted under hate-crimes statues based solely on her status as a female. Could you enlighten me?

    No, hate crime laws are a societal good. It has nothing to do with making people feel good. That is not the purpose of our criminal justice system. And our laws have always judged some types of crimes as more heinous than others. The law has distinguished between different classes of murder and assigned greater penalties to those it deems more deleterious to society at large and in some cases, distinguishes on the basis of who was murdered. For example, the murder of a police officer carries a greater sentence than killing a civilian.
    We are not talking about different classes of murder. We are talking about the same, exact murder but one is prosecuted as a hate crime based upon legal discriminatory bias alone. Quite frankly, it seems for deleterious to society at large to give the lives of certain citizens more value than the lives of others. Do you feel your loved ones lives are of less value than the life of another average individual who just happened to fall into a "protected" category? And yes, I'm aware that police officer lives are more highly valued by the legal system than an ordinary, every-day civilian. I disapprove of that, frankly. The lives of police officers are no more valuable than the lives of those they supposedly "serve and protect."

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I disagree, they are completely equal. A man who kills a woman because he hates women is no different from a man who kills a minority because he hates minorities. Hate crime laws might be a societal "feel good", but it is in reality a societal "inequalitizer" because it quite frankly makes the death of some victims more "heinous" than others for no other reason than the race, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity of the victim. That is not an example of the "law being blind". It's an example making the death of certain individuals more important under the eyes of the law than other individuals based upon discriminatory legal bias.
    Actually, the man who kills a woman has less potential and actual societal effects than the man who kills a minority so they are still different. Hate crimes acknowledge these effects. You can debate whether or not it should acknowledge these effects, but it's pretty clear that hate crimes affect society more than non-hate crimes so, in one sense, they are "more important" not because the life hurt or taken is more valuable but because the crime itself had a larger impact on society - I think that impact should be noted. Moreover, the only people who would become more racially divided or "sexuality divided" because of hate crime laws are people who are racist and homophobic to begin with so I'm not buying that argument.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I'm aware that tens of thousands or more women are murdered in this country every year. I'm unaware of a single one prosecuted under hate-crimes statues based solely on her status as a female. Could you enlighten me?
    I don't have time ow to go googling.



    We are not talking about different classes of murder. We are talking about the same, exact murder but one is prosecuted as a hate crime based upon legal discriminatory bias alone. Quite frankly, it seems for deleterious to society at large to give the lives of certain citizens more value than the lives of others. Do you feel your loved ones lives are of less value than the life of another average individual who just happened to fall into a "protected" category? And yes, I'm aware that police officer lives are more highly valued by the legal system than an ordinary, every-day civilian. I disapprove of that, frankly. The lives of police officers are no more valuable than the lives of those they supposedly "serve and protect."
    No, they are not the same exact murder. One is motivated by bias, and one is not. And we have a long tradition of punishing the murders of one class of people more harshly than others. I already gave an example of that. You are free to disapprove of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Actually, the man who kills a woman has less potential and actual societal effects than the man who kills a minority so they are still different. Hate crimes acknowledge these effects. You can debate whether or not it should acknowledge these effects, but it's pretty clear that hate crimes affect society more than non-hate crimes so, in one sense, they are "more important" not because the life hurt or taken is more valuable but because the crime itself had a larger impact on society - I think that impact should be noted. Moreover, the only people who would become more racially divided or "sexuality divided" because of hate crime laws are people who are racist and homophobic to begin with so I'm not buying that argument.
    And it's important to note that the state prosecutes criminals, not to make the victim "whole" or to gain revenge for the victim, but to protect society. That's why the State prosecutes, and not the victim (or the victims family)
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I disagree, they are completely equal. A man who kills a woman because he hates women is no different from a man who kills a minority because he hates minorities. Hate crime laws might be a societal "feel good", but it is in reality a societal "inequalitizer" because it quite frankly makes the death of some victims more "heinous" than others for no other reason than the race, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity of the victim. That is not an example of the "law being blind". It's an example making the death of certain individuals more important under the eyes of the law than other individuals based upon discriminatory legal bias.
    In your example, the murderer would get charged with 1st degree murder for both situation simply because his bias drove him to commit the act. Without the hate crime laws, they perp could be charged for a lesser crime as it may be seen as 2nd degree or manslaughter depending on how the encounter occurred.

    So the fact is, hate crime laws equalize the law against those that make a point to target people because of some bias and charges them appropriately. If you say you hate Mexicans and go out of your way to have conflicts with them that eventually leads to you murdering a person of Mexican descend, isn't that pre-meditated? Shouldn't the prep receive a harsher penalty for the crime as you would if you stalked and murdered women? You can't call it manslaughter can you because the perp made every effort to create a situation where this would occur or just showed he was willing to harm a person because of his bias alone.

    I think being against hate crime laws is to be against fairness of the law. State of mind is always relevant.
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