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Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

BamaBrat said:
Ok tired of looking. Heres a couple in medical journals i think. (which really proves or disproves nothing, because for every study you find that says it works, there are just as many that say it doesnt... it all basically comes down to personal opinion)

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...n11101_fm.html

Doctors increasingly find introducing prayer helps calm patients and speeds recovery

If you dont believe in prayer, it does nothing for you or anyone else. If you do, prayer does give you a sense of the warm and fuzzies, of feeling better, or feeling more peaceful... this i say from personal experience and nothing else.
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sadly the mja link gives me: Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /public/issues/...n11101_fm.html on this server.
 
madman said:
sadly the mja link gives me: Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /public/issues/...n11101_fm.html on this server.
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really??? hmmmm...... weird. I tried it again and it gave me the same thing...but when i went to the site and read the article the first time it was there. oh well.
 
1Perry said:
Depression and Meditation

Prayer and meditation can augment both serotonin and dopamine production and your optimistic center. It turns on the vagal system, the optimistic center and suppresses the pessimistic center and the sympathetic nervous system- reversing a downward trend. The same is true about negative thought, such as anger and uncontrolled stress. This turns on cortisol and the pessimistic center that cause further deterioration leading to depression and sleeplessness.

Pretty basic. Do you sleep and do better when you have something bothering you or after you've dealt with it?
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This seems to support optimism more than it supports prayer. It's like saying, "Being optimistic turns on the optimistic center of the brain." Well... duh :wink2:

We all know that prayer doesn't actually work, this is why parents who pray for their children in lieu of seeking medical help are charged with a crime.

Why do religious people get immunized? Can't they just pray for God's protection?

When was the last time someone was rushed into a hospital and you heard the doctor say, "I need 20 cc's of prayer STAT!"?

Why is it that prayer only seems to help with internal conditions like cancer. Why doesn't anyone regrow a lost limb?

Regarding the prayer by the governor though... still waiting for a secular purpose. :2wave:
 
SlackMaster said:
When was the last time someone was rushed into a hospital and you heard the doctor say, "I need 20 cc's of prayer STAT!"?
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Yesterday. 25 year old male. Cardiac arrest, unknown period without oxygen or blood circulation prior to transport. Oh, believe me, they did everything they could medically. The 2-3 hours afterward there was way more than 20CCs. ER doc advised family...in the hospital chapel.

Dude is doing fine. No indication of long term damage. Medical skill saved the kid. Prayer kinda kept everyone together while they were awaiting the results. Works for some, obviously not for others. The prickish need of individuals to ridicule others in their belief system...well...that speaks volumes too.
 
SlackMaster said:
Regarding the prayer by the governor though... still waiting for a secular purpose. :2wave:
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You have seen plenty of utilitarian views. You just choose to ignore them.
 
VanceMack said:
Yesterday. 25 year old male. Cardiac arrest, unknown period without oxygen or blood circulation prior to transport. Oh, believe me, they did everything they could medically. The 2-3 hours afterward there was way more than 20CCs. ER doc advised family...in the hospital chapel.

Dude is doing fine. No indication of long term damage. Medical skill saved the kid. Prayer kinda kept everyone together while they were awaiting the results. Works for some, obviously not for others. The prickish need of individuals to ridicule others in their belief system...well...that speaks volumes too.
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I'm not ridiculing anyone for their beliefs. I'm simply stating that prayer has not been proven to work and religious people realize this as well, even if they don't want to admit it.

Your anecdote shows that it gives people something to do, but did not have a direct causal effect on the patient.
 
Fiddytree said:
You have seen plenty of utilitarian views. You just choose to ignore them.
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Can you run those past me one more time please? Perhaps just one example.

The best I've seen so far is that it gives people "warm fuzzies".
 
Catawba said:
We have control over this global warming by the amount of CO2 we pump into the atmosphere. Shirking our responsibility to do something about it by thinking prayer will save us only serves to continue the trend.

Storm Warnings: Extreme Weather Is a Product of Climate Change
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I dont know about everyone else....but when I pray for or about something, I dont just pray and forget all about it. I pray and then immediately go about doing whatever it is i personally can to change whatever circumstance it is im praying about. As an example.... When my grandfather was ill, i prayed for him and for my family. Then we went about talking to the doctors and whoever else about what we could do to make him better. If it rains in Oklahoma next week... is it prayer?? or is it just weather conditions coming together and it made rain? Does it really truly matter? they would have gotten rain. If someone thinks their personal prayer to God helped to make rain...whatever. If someone thinks that prayers made no difference at all...whatever.
 
SlackMaster said:
I'm not ridiculing anyone for their beliefs. I'm simply stating that prayer has not been proven to work and religious people realize this as well, even if they don't want to admit it.

Your anecdote shows that it gives people something to do, but did not have a direct causal effect on the patient.
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Ask ANY doctor and they will tell you the same things. They see things they simply cant explain. Call it luck, call it a miracle, call it whatever you like. To be true...the rely first and foremost on the skills they developed over time. However, if you dont think science based individuals dont routinely engage in prayer for skill greater than that which they posess, you know no doctors.

And you REALLY dont think you and others are ridiculing others beliefs? Funny...we have this whole thread...and several others just like it...

That may not be your intent...yet...here you are. Its kinda like going up to someone enjoying a meal which you dont like and then feeling the need to exclaim..."ewwww...you are going to eat that? It tastes like ****!"

So the governor can ask those so inclined to consider prayer. Indians can do a rain dance. Those NOT inclined can...well...
 
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SlackMaster said:
Can you run those past me one more time please? Perhaps just one example.

The best I've seen so far is that it gives people "warm fuzzies".
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How is that not utilitarian?

We have control over this global warming by the amount of CO2 we pump into the atmosphere. Shirking our responsibility to do something about it by thinking prayer will save us only serves to continue the trend.

Storm Warnings: Extreme Weather Is a Product of Climate Change
Click to expand...

Okay, but are all droughts an example of Global Warming? And even if they were, consider....it's still happening, still a reality. Our methodology for farming after the turn of century diminished the soil, but when the weather turned for the worse, we hit disaster and out came the dust bowl. Would you honestly still diminish the act of prayer? It's not productive enough?

Even supposing the prayers have no host to go to, when man is down and feeling his worst, could not the simple act of prayer help unite and moralize a troubled group?
 
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BamaBrat said:
I dont know about everyone else....but when I pray for or about something, I dont just pray and forget all about it. I pray and then immediately go about doing whatever it is i personally can to change whatever circumstance it is im praying about. As an example.... When my grandfather was ill, i prayed for him and for my family. Then we went about talking to the doctors and whoever else about what we could do to make him better. If it rains in Oklahoma next week... is it prayer?? or is it just weather conditions coming together and it made rain? Does it really truly matter? they would have gotten rain. If someone thinks their personal prayer to God helped to make rain...whatever. If someone thinks that prayers made no difference at all...whatever.
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My only beef is with people who pray in lieu of personal responsibility.
 
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Catawba said:
My only beef is with people who pray as an alternative to personal responsibility.
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I have a problem with that too. God says to come to him with your troubles and worries, he says nothing about... and then sit on your butt and do nothing.
 
Fiddytree said:
Okay, but are all droughts an example of Global Warming? And even if they were, consider....it's still happening, still a reality. Our methodology for farming after the turn of century diminished the soil, but when the weather turned for the worse, we hit disaster and out came the dust bowl. Would you honestly still diminish the act of prayer? It's not productive enough?

Even supposing the prayers have no host to go to, when man is down and feeling his worst, could not the simple act of prayer help unite and moralize a troubled group?
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We have to apply a little common sense here. Global warming increases droughts and wildfires. Only reducing our CO2 output (not prayer) has the likehood of preventing severe droughts and other extreme weather events in the future. If the Mayor had said we all need to be reminded of our wasteful uses of energy and cut back on wasting of energy to help avoid more of this in the future, that would make sense, and then if the Mayor wanted to add that praying wouldn't hurt as well, I would have then seen it as a responsible thing to say.
 
Catawba said:
We have to apply a little common sense here. Global warming increases droughts and wildfires. Only reducing our CO2 output (not prayer) has the likehood of preventing severe droughts and other extreme weather events in the future. If the Mayor had said we all need to be reminded of our wasteful uses of energy and cut back on wasting of energy to help avoid more of this in the future, that would make sense, and then if the Mayor wanted to add that praying wouldn't hurt as well, I would have then seen it as a responsible thing to say.
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CO2 emissions made all the difference back in the 1930s...

DU012A.jpg
 
VanceMack said:
CO2 emissions made all the difference back in the 1930s...

DU012A.jpg
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So you go with the reasoning that because nature started brush fires without man, man is not capable of startiing brush fires?
 
Catawba said:
So you go with the reasoning that because nature started brush fires without man, man is not capable of startiing brush fires?
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I choose not to be some mindless faith based person believing CO2 emissions must be causing today the same climatological phenomenon observed throughout recorded history.
 
VanceMack said:
I choose not to be some mindless faith based person believing CO2 emissions must be causing today the same climatological phenomenon observed throughout recorded history.
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Me either, I go with the scientific documentation that has shown that reasons for warming in the past are not the forcing in this warming. What factors that created warming in the past have been a force in this warming?
 
Badfish420 said:
theres nothing really wrong with asking people to pray for rain, its just a typical stupid over the top christian conservative (borderline offensive) thing to say. nothing surprising here.
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I don't understand why you would find it offensive. If someone said "wish me well" would that be offensive to you? You can't actually make him "well" but is it really offensive?
 
Catawba said:
Me either, I go with the scientific documentation that has shown that reasons for warming in the past are not the forcing in this warming. What factors that created warming in the past have been a force in this warming?
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You faith based people are comical. "sure....climate change has happened naturally throughout history. But what evidence do you have that today isnt actually caused by human beings?"
 
VanceMack said:
You faith based people are comical. "sure....climate change has happened naturally throughout history. But what evidence do you have that today isnt actually caused by human beings?"
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What evidence do you possess that shows it's not caused by aliens? LOL. I have to laugh. "Yes, we have gone through this all down through recorded history (and in evidence left before there was a record) but it's different this time". LOL
 
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