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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Hundreds of years ago there was no proof or method to prove the earth was spherical, yet now we know it is. Who knows what we'll discover in several hundred more years.
    Agreed, but whether or not the earth is round is a falsifiable proposition. God on the other hand... isn't. (If anyone would like to give a falsifiable definition for their god, I'm all ears).

    Also, until those making the claim for their god meet their burden of proof, those who do not believe are fully justified in doing so.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I don't think anyone made the argument that those specific words are in the constitution, but check out supreme court rulings over the years.

    Specifically Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971)
    Also check out what Congress does to start off their day.

    The Office of the Chaplain, United States House of Representatives

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well I don't think we have to be unreasonable here. I mean the governor saying that people should pray for rain, that's not violation of church and state, nor the establishment clause. Now if he said "burn down mosques because they are an affront to our Christian God" or "hunt down and destroy atheists!"; then maybe we can be saying that it's over the line. But what he said there was not over the line. On some level we must retain our common sense else we won't be allowed to do anything.
    I would agree with you that it's a rather innocuous and mild violation of the establishment clause, but a violation none the less.

    Can you explain using the Lemon test cited above how this is not a violation?

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Agreed, but whether or not the earth is round is a falsifiable proposition. God on the other hand... isn't. (If anyone would like to give a falsifiable definition for their god, I'm all ears).

    Also, until those making the claim for their god meet their burden of proof, those who do not believe are fully justified in doing so.
    Why do we even care who or what people believe in? People are allowed to believe and practice as they see fit. So long as they aren't infringing upon the rights of others, they should do as they like. So people believe in god, who cares? So the governor of OK is asking people to pray for rain, what's the big f'n deal? He ain't making me go to Church. He ain't trying to force me to believe. My disbelief is still firmly intact.

    I think some people are just making an mountain out of a mole hill with this issue. Calm down.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I would agree with you that it's a rather innocuous and mild violation of the establishment clause, but a violation none the less.

    Can you explain using the Lemon test cited above how this is not a violation?
    Can you explain how my rights are being violated? I'll care when that happens.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I don't think anyone made the argument that those specific words are in the constitution,
    When you state "I'm a firm believer in the separation of church and state. I find this kind of act unconstitutional." you making the claim that separation of church and state in the constitution.In order to claim something in unconstitutional there has to be something in the constitution to back it up. Since there is no such thing as separation of church in the constitution then it is blatantly false to make a claim that something in unconstitutional because it violates separation of church and state. If the governor made a law requiring that we pray to a specific god for rain then it would actually be a violation of the 1st amendment seeing how congress is not supposed to enact laws that respect the establishment of religion.

    but check out supreme court rulings over the years.

    Specifically Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971)
    The supreme court ruled wrong.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 07-15-11 at 01:56 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I would agree with you that it's a rather innocuous and mild violation of the establishment clause, but a violation none the less.

    Can you explain using the Lemon test cited above how this is not a violation?
    Can you explain how this isn't?

    The Office of the Chaplain, United States House of Representatives

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Polotick View Post
    Be very careful what you ask for, god/s/esses see things their own ways.

    And? They will regardless of how I pray, wouldn't you think? Nevermind the fact that tornado alley is involved.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    How stupid can one be? Well it is Oklahoma. So it fits the local mentality.
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
    Sophie B. Hawkins

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Also check out what Congress does to start off their day.

    The Office of the Chaplain, United States House of Representatives
    History does not make something right.

    See Marsh v. Chambers (1983)

    "Standing alone, historical patterns cannot justify contemporary violations of constitutional guarantees..."

    Walz v. Tax Commission of the state of New York (1970)

    "No one acquires a vested or protected right in violation of the constitution by long use, even when that span of time covers our entire national existence and indeed predates it."

    By that same logic one could have argued that slavery was okay because we've been doing it for so many years.

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