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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    My sister has 30 years of sobriety. Atheists get sober too, y'know?
    What higher power does an athiest believe in?

    People give up alcohol without AA. Charlie Sheen was right about AA. It's a cult. Telling people they are powerless over alcohol and asking them to defer to a higher power is stupid! The power is theirs alone.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    What higher power does an athiest believe in?

    People give up alcohol without AA. Charlie Sheen was right about AA. It's a cult. Telling people they are powerless over alcohol and asking them to defer to a higher power is stupid! The power is theirs alone.
    That was a little rude. Until you've walked that road you're just speculating.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    He's asking everybody to pray. If he'd meant God, he could or would have said God. He didn't. He said 'higher power.' I'm not big on second-guessing people.

    I already took it to my Facebook page, also asking for candles and crystals. Whatever works. If a person has any faith in anything, I'm sure Oklahomans will appreciate the support.
    Rev does have a point though, but that was not the point of my thread.

    I know he's not commanding everyone to pray, or i know he didnt say to pray to a god. However, he did say "pray to our christian god". He might have not literally said that, but come on, its' OKLAHOMA. He's pandering to his base, and his base are christians.

    BTW, love your fox brainwashing sig
    Last edited by madman; 07-15-11 at 01:26 PM.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I don't care if private citizens pray, or if a religious leader asks people to pray. But when an government official asks people to pray, that's another issue altogether.

    I'm a firm believer in the separation of church and state. I find this kind of act unconstitutional.
    Actually there is no separation of church and state in the constitution, so it it not unconstitutional for an elected official to ask people to pray. Here is the text of the first amendment regarding religion"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ". Now notice it did not say that elected officials can not participate in religious functions, can not ask constituents to pray for rain, that public schools can not have Christmas trees and Christmas plays with Jesus in it, and that ten commandments, star of david, crescent moons and other other religious symbol can not be one tax payer owned buildings. This is why the text does not say "congress shall be barred from exercising religious beliefs in public or government functions.". The purpose of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ". is make to where the government can not ban religion or to force you to join a religion.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    It's not going to hurt anything, if anything it will bring those you believe together ina positive way
    I don't understand why you care so much to post a thread, or feel the need to make fun of people for their personal beliefs. I have a few guesses.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    The state doesn't have to take out a full page ad saying, "This is a Christian" nation for there to be a violation of the establishment clause.

    Traditionally in courts they use what is called a "Lemon Test" to determine if the act is constitutional. So let's apply it here.

    1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
    ... Not seeing a "secular" purpose to asking people to pray to a deity.

    2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
    ...asking people to pray seems like advancing religion to me.

    3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
    ... We could argue til the end of days what is "excessive" but in my mind "excessive" is any entanglement.

    All 3 conditions do not have to be met. Only one. Yet, I think it's clear that the action we're discussing fail this test.

    Unless he can provide some evidence where praying has more effect on the real world than standing on your head, or doing a rain dance, or any other action... then his actions can only be construed as an abuse of authority to advance religious belief.

    ---

    Regarding AA, there are a lot of people who feel that court ordered AA is a violation of the establishment clause. Some states have even allowed people to choose a treatment of their choosing which includes secular AA like programs.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    It's not going to hurt anything, if anything it will bring those you believe together ina positive way
    I don't understand why you care so much to post a thread, or feel the need to make fun of people for their personal beliefs. I have a few guesses.
    I know it's not hurting anything. People can pray to their cat, house, money, garbage disposal, mailman. In my opinion, it's just silly.
    It's not that im trying make fun of peoples beliefs, it's just, i can not fathom why people believe in a "god" that does not exist.

    Why do christians get so defensive when people oppose their "god"? Are they not secure in their religion?

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    And that's what makes it silly. People having mental conversations with a "being" that has no evidence of it existing, or even a method of gathering data for that matter.
    Hundreds of years ago there was no proof or method to prove the earth was spherical, yet now we know it is. Who knows what we'll discover in several hundred more years.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Actually there is no separation of church and state in the constitution, so it it not unconstitutional for an elected official to ask people to pray. Here is the text of the first amendment regarding religion"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ". Now notice it did not say that elected officials can not participate in religious functions, can not ask constituents to pray for rain, that public schools can not have Christmas trees and Christmas plays with Jesus in it, and that ten commandments, star of david, crescent moons and other other religious symbol can not be one tax payer owned buildings. This is why the text does not say "congress shall be barred from exercising religious beliefs in public or government functions.". The purpose of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ". is make to where the government can not ban religion or to force you to join a religion.
    I don't think anyone made the argument that those specific words are in the constitution, but check out supreme court rulings over the years.

    Specifically Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971)

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    The state doesn't have to take out a full page ad saying, "This is a Christian" nation for there to be a violation of the establishment clause.

    Traditionally in courts they use what is called a "Lemon Test" to determine if the act is constitutional. So let's apply it here.

    1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
    ... Not seeing a "secular" purpose to asking people to pray to a deity.

    2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
    ...asking people to pray seems like advancing religion to me.

    3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
    ... We could argue til the end of days what is "excessive" but in my mind "excessive" is any entanglement.

    All 3 conditions do not have to be met. Only one. Yet, I think it's clear that the action we're discussing fail this test.

    Unless he can provide some evidence where praying has more effect on the real world than standing on your head, or doing a rain dance, or any other action... then his actions can only be construed as an abuse of authority to advance religious belief.

    ---

    Regarding AA, there are a lot of people who feel that court ordered AA is a violation of the establishment clause. Some states have even allowed people to choose a treatment of their choosing which includes secular AA like programs.
    Well I don't think we have to be unreasonable here. I mean the governor saying that people should pray for rain, that's not violation of church and state, nor the establishment clause. Now if he said "burn down mosques because they are an affront to our Christian God" or "hunt down and destroy atheists!"; then maybe we can be saying that it's over the line. But what he said there was not over the line. On some level we must retain our common sense else we won't be allowed to do anything.
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