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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I cited case law earlier where is showed that "force" does not need to be there for it to be an establishment clause violation. School teachers can't even lead a voluntary prayer. No prayer. Period.

    I'm sorry that in "your opinion" you don't feel like his salary counts, but it DOES.

    My tax dollars are being used to promote a religion. THAT IS A VIOLATION.

    You said...



    What is this "government" you speak of? Rick Perry IS THE GOVERNMENT!

    I'm sorry Ikari, I'm not trying to be a dick here, but you're arguing against 100 years of case law. Government officials can not use their position to promote a religion, force or not. You can't become Governor and then use that position to initiate prayer rallies for a particular religion.

    I'm sorry you disagree with this, but it's the law of our land.
    It's not 100 years of case law. Because the founders most certainly made appeals to gods in their speeches and emplored the people to keep faith and such. The problem is that over the years, certain abilities have been usurped at the cost of our own rights and liberties. The Lemon Test still requires action by the government. Government action is marked by force. So for there to be an action by the government, there must be a force. If you can't show a force, you can't show an action. If you can't show an action, I find it hard that you can legitimately then claim violation of establishment.

    And it's not that his salary doesn't count. Please read. I said that it doesn't account for force in this case. He gets paid by taxpayer dollars to perform duties as governor. But that doesn't mean he doesn't get to run his mouth the same as the rest of us. No, to remain true to the Constitution and the intent of establishment, you MUST have government action. Without it, there is no actual violation of establishment, no matter how much you wish and pray there was. Your tax dollars ARE NOT being used to promote religion in this case. If there was a religious pray event and the government used tax payer dollars to fund THAT, then you can claim establishment. But just because the governor is paid with tax payer dollars does not mean that you can sit there and claim that he can't now run his mouth because he is paid with our money.

    If he used the power of his office in any measurable way, I could maybe agree with you. But he didn't. There's no force, there's no action, he did not use his office to carry it out. That's reality. I really wish people could focus more on the broken aspects of our government rather than make ridiculous claims like establishment violations when there has been NO ACTION by the government. Less you want to demonstrate to me that action. Where's the force? Can you show it?

    I've asked you repeated times now, and all you've done is dance around the issue. Can you demonstrate force?
    Last edited by Ikari; 07-21-11 at 04:36 PM.
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's not 100 years of case law. Because the founders most certainly made appeals to gods in their speeches and emplored the people to keep faith and such. The problem is that over the years, certain abilities have been usurped at the cost of our own rights and liberties. The Lemon Test still requires action by the government. Government action is marked by force. So for there to be an action by the government, there must be a force. If you can't show a force, you can't show an action. If you can't show an action, I find it hard that you can legitimately then claim violation of establishment.

    And it's not that his salary doesn't count. Please read. I said that it doesn't account for force in this case. He gets paid by taxpayer dollars to perform duties as governor. But that doesn't mean he doesn't get to run his mouth the same as the rest of us. No, to remain true to the Constitution and the intent of establishment, you MUST have government action. Without it, there is no actual violation of establishment, no matter how much you wish and pray there was. Your tax dollars ARE NOT being used to promote religion in this case. If there was a religious pray event and the government used tax payer dollars to fund THAT, then you can claim establishment. But just because the governor is paid with tax payer dollars does not mean that you can sit there and claim that he can't now run his mouth because he is paid with our money.

    If he used the power of his office in any measurable way, I could maybe agree with you. But he didn't. There's no force, there's no action, he did not use his office to carry it out. That's reality. I really wish people could focus more on the broken aspects of our government rather than make ridiculous claims like establishment violations when there has been NO ACTION by the government. Less you want to demonstrate to me that action. Where's the force? Can you show it?

    I've asked you repeated times now, and all you've done is dance around the issue. Can you demonstrate force?
    Where was the "government" action in school prayer?

    Why can't school teachers lead voluntary prayers at school then?
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Where was the "government" action in school prayer?
    Public schools are directly funded through tax dollars. Taxation is a form of force, and hence a form of government action.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Why can't school teachers lead voluntary prayers at school then?
    Because people are stupid and can't leave well enough alone. If no one is being forced, there's no problem. If it was nothing more than a silent time before class started; there should have been no problem. It's uppity, smarmy jerks who don't realize that by opening these cans of worms, it's just going to get worse down the road. As you are well demonstrating.

    So where's the force in your situation?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Woah... Deja Vu. I feel like I've dealt with this argument before.

    Oh yea, that's cause I did.
    True, but can you tell me why asking for people to pray is a violation of the establishment clause

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    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    True, but can you tell me why asking for people to pray is a violation of the establishment clause

    It isn't. Some people just don't like people praying to God in their secular indoctrination centers. There used to be a day in America when we had religious freedom. Some people just dont' know what the US Constitution says about religion, and they get by with their ignorance because other ignorant people in black robes allow it.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Yes we do. The word "third" as in "third" day of october was in his hand. The rest was in the hand of William Jackson. The date was left open so that Washington could fill it in when he signed.
    That really doesn't tell us the extent to which he contributed. Were there multiple versions? Outlines? Discussions of content?

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Sure they did. He did not raise the issue but was forced to respond either by signing or veto. A veto would have likely been overridden and, as I said, he may have gone along with it for political reasons.
    I just don't see it that way. They submitted a joint resolution and it's the President's duty to respond. No different than a joint resolution or bill submitted to the President today.

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Uhh, no. It was common of deists and those who were sensitive to the fact that not all were Christians, but the Christians did not avoid referring to Christ anymore than they do now.
    Not true. Religion in those days was more about a fear of god than a love of Jesus. Jesus didn't take a central role in American religion until the 19th century with the second great awakening and the rise of evangelism. Whereas Jesus has become the center of christian life for many in this country, this is different than how he was perceived in the colonial period.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    True, but can you tell me why asking for people to pray is a violation of the establishment clause

    No, not really. All he can say is that it does and then dance around any question of what the actual dynamic behind this supposed violation of establishment is.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, not really. All he can say is that it does and then dance around any question of what the actual dynamic behind this supposed violation of establishment is.
    I agree. How could a politician asking people to pray be a violation of the establishment clause if people are still asking how a politician asking people to pray can be a violation of the establishment clause
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Yea, I saw this coming. That's how they dealt with the National Day of Prayer. They didn't rule it constitutional, they just ruled that the people suing didn't have standing. I disagree, but what else would you expect from a Texas judge. He was probably one of Perry's buddies. Had the judge ruled in favor of FFRF, he would have been slammed by the media just like the judge who had the balls to rule NDOP unconstitutional. He was looking for any out to not have to rule on the constitutionality and he took it.
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    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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