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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    It is not the EXACT same thing at all. Nice try though.
    OK governor asked people to pray for rain, Perry asked people to pray for rain. How is that not the same thing?
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    We don't know the extent to which he contributed to the proclamation.
    Yes we do. The word "third" as in "third" day of october was in his hand. The rest was in the hand of William Jackson. The date was left open so that Washington could fill it in when he signed. It's also quite likely that he made sure there was no mention of Christ as he was ALWAYS careful to do. Except, again, in that Treaty of Tripoli. Most of the most prominent founders did not believe in the divinity of Christ.

    They didn't have "a power" over him, they simply issued a joint resolution authorizing a day of Thanksgiving.
    Sure they did. He did not raise the issue but was forced to respond either by signing or veto. A veto would have likely been overridden and, as I said, he may have gone along with it for political reasons.

    And which was typical for the time period.
    Uhh, no. It was common of deists and those who were sensitive to the fact that not all were Christians, but the Christians did not avoid referring to Christ anymore than they do now.
    Last edited by BayToBay; 07-21-11 at 12:00 PM.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    OK governor asked people to pray for rain, Perry asked people to pray for rain. How is that not the same thing?
    I don't see how anyone asking anyone else to pray for something is a violation of the establishment clause. Without force, there's nothing real here.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I don't see how anyone asking anyone else to pray for something is a violation of the establishment clause. Without force, there's nothing real here.
    Woah... Deja Vu. I feel like I've dealt with this argument before.

    Oh yea, that's cause I did.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
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    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Woah... Deja Vu. I feel like I've dealt with this argument before.

    Oh yea, that's cause I did.
    You attempted, but you never answered it with any amount of satisfaction. In the end, there are measurable effects and those effects are what define reality. Establishment requires action on the part of government, as does the Lemon Test. Thus you have to have some amount of force applied, something the the government is actually doing. But there is no government action here, there is no bill, there is no force. Are they using tax payer dollars for it? You may be able to build a case off of that if there is (that's how they brought up school in prayer since public schools are funded by tax payer dollars, though I find the ruling on that to have overstepped the boundaries of what government could legitimately restrict).

    Show me the force. You've never once dealt with that. You made little run arounds and such. I deal with reality, and in reality there must be some amount of government activity, government force (as all government action is acted out through various forms of force) to claim that the government is running afoul of establishment. The government can't do nothing and violate establishment. There must be an action, there must be a force. If you truly want to "deal" with this argument; then that's what you will address. Can you?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You attempted, but you never answered it with any amount of satisfaction. In the end, there are measurable effects and those effects are what define reality. Establishment requires action on the part of government, as does the Lemon Test. Thus you have to have some amount of force applied, something the the government is actually doing. But there is no government action here, there is no bill, there is no force. Are they using tax payer dollars for it? You may be able to build a case off of that if there is (that's how they brought up school in prayer since public schools are funded by tax payer dollars, though I find the ruling on that to have overstepped the boundaries of what government could legitimately restrict).

    Show me the force. You've never once dealt with that. You made little run arounds and such. I deal with reality, and in reality there must be some amount of government activity, government force (as all government action is acted out through various forms of force) to claim that the government is running afoul of establishment. The government can't do nothing and violate establishment. There must be an action, there must be a force. If you truly want to "deal" with this argument; then that's what you will address. Can you?
    My tax dollars pay Governor Rick Perry's salary, just like they pay for the school teachers.

    Governor Rick Perry can no more promote religion, than the school teachers can.

    The "Action" you're demanding is the action of Governor Rick Perry, in an official capacity, as my paid Governor endorsing religion over non-religion, specifically Christianity. Government officials aren't allowed to come out and say that people should be a specific religion. That flies right in the face of the constitution for the reasons I stated earlier. There is plenty of case law to support this that I have cited earlier in this thread and much more that I didn't have the time to go dig up.

    Government officials can't officially support or promote a particular religion, they're supposed to stay neutral when it comes to religion.

    Does this mean that Rick Perry can't go to church, of course not. He has his freedom of religion too. It just means that he has to attend as a private citizen, exercising his right to religious freedom. Not as my Governor.

    He can no more promote from an official capacity Christianity than Obama could Satanism, or Islam, or any other religion. Government officials cannot use their position of power to endorse religious institutions.

    When he's in an official capacity he has to represent all the people of Texas not just the religious ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    My tax dollars pay Governor Rick Perry's salary, just like they pay for the school teachers.

    Governor Rick Perry can no more promote religion, than the school teachers can.

    The "Action" you're demanding is the action of Governor Rick Perry, in an official capacity, as my paid Governor endorsing religion over non-religion, specifically Christianity. Government officials aren't allowed to come out and say that people should be a specific religion. That flies right in the face of the constitution for the reasons I stated earlier. There is plenty of case law to support this that I have cited earlier in this thread and much more that I didn't have the time to go dig up.

    Government officials can't officially support or promote a particular religion, they're supposed to stay neutral when it comes to religion.

    Does this mean that Rick Perry can't go to church, of course not. He has his freedom of religion too. It just means that he has to attend as a private citizen, exercising his right to religious freedom. Not as my Governor.

    He can no more promote from an official capacity Christianity than Obama could Satanism, or Islam, or any other religion. Government officials cannot use their position of power to endorse religious institutions.

    When he's in an official capacity he has to represent all the people of Texas not just the religious ones.
    But even if he is saying something, the only way he can do so through government is to enact government to do something. Otherwise he's just a dude running his mouth and everyone is allowed to do that. I can't see this as establishment as there is nothing forcing people to go to the prayer meeting thing. There is no repercussions for not attending. If the prayer meeting thing used tax payer dollars, sure; but other than that it's too much of a stretch IMO to claim violation of establishment here. If they were having a prayer meeting and the governor says people should pray for rain at this event and the event is held somewhere wherein tax dollars are being used to fund the prayer meeting; then I think you can make an argument. To just say his salary is paid for by taxpayers and thus he can't run his mouth any way he wants is not, IMO, valid argument. There has to be some amount of action by the government. Lots of politicians have and will continue to evoke gods in their rhetoric, and each case of that is not a case of violation of establishment. It only becomes so if they try to use government to enforce it. That's the real thing right there, that's the measure. Where is the force? Can you address that?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But even if he is saying something, the only way he can do so through government is to enact government to do something. Otherwise he's just a dude running his mouth and everyone is allowed to do that. I can't see this as establishment as there is nothing forcing people to go to the prayer meeting thing. There is no repercussions for not attending. If the prayer meeting thing used tax payer dollars, sure; but other than that it's too much of a stretch IMO to claim violation of establishment here. If they were having a prayer meeting and the governor says people should pray for rain at this event and the event is held somewhere wherein tax dollars are being used to fund the prayer meeting; then I think you can make an argument. To just say his salary is paid for by taxpayers and thus he can't run his mouth any way he wants is not, IMO, valid argument. There has to be some amount of action by the government. Lots of politicians have and will continue to evoke gods in their rhetoric, and each case of that is not a case of violation of establishment. It only becomes so if they try to use government to enforce it. That's the real thing right there, that's the measure. Where is the force? Can you address that?
    I cited case law earlier where is showed that "force" does not need to be there for it to be an establishment clause violation. School teachers can't even lead a voluntary prayer. No prayer. Period.

    I'm sorry that in "your opinion" you don't feel like his salary counts, but it DOES.

    My tax dollars are being used to promote a religion. THAT IS A VIOLATION.

    You said...

    "But even if he is saying something, the only way he can do so through government is to enact government to do something."
    What is this "government" you speak of? Rick Perry IS THE GOVERNMENT!

    I'm sorry Ikari, I'm not trying to be a dick here, but you're arguing against 100 years of case law. Government officials can not use their position to promote a religion, force or not. You can't become Governor and then use that position to initiate prayer rallies for a particular religion.

    I'm sorry you disagree with this, but it's the law of our land.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Yes, let's make a forum post mocking theism. I am no Christian, but I believe you should consider some religious freedom and leave the subject to personal choice. Either way, he said greater power adhering to your liberal agenda. How hypocritical.. =]
    Last edited by Matty; 07-21-11 at 03:37 PM.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Matty View Post
    Yes, let's make a forum post mocking theism. I am no Christian, but I believe you should consider some religious freedom and leave the subject to personal choice. Either way, he said greater power adhering to your liberal agenda. How hypocritical.. =]
    Matty, did you even read the rest of this thread?

    If so, why are you making an argument that others have already made?

    Hell... did you read the 3 or 4 posts above the one you just made? I'm thinking not. If you had, you would see that this isn't about "making fun of religion" but about a violation of our constitution.

    Nice Straw-man though :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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