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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

  1. #381
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Because it violates the constitution maybe?
    Hmm... Constituition...... is that the name of YOUR god?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    On "The Response" leadership page he's listed as "Governor Rick Perry, initiator of The Response"

    Leadership | The Response: August 6, 2011

    On the homepage is a big video of him that starts out, "I'm Governor Rick Perry..."

    The Response: A call to prayer for a nation in crisis

    Here's where he made the proclamation to pray for rain:

    Office of the Governor Rick Perry - [Proclamation] Gov. Perry Issues Proclamation for Days of Prayer for Rain in Texas

    Here's what The Response spokesperson had to say about the event...



    See... They want people of all faith to come and worship Jesus :/

    I'm on a mobile device right now, didn't see on the government website but they may have taken it down, it wasn't there, or I'm just not finding it.

    Looks like he's trying to distance himself from the supporters of the event.

    Rick Perry says he doesn
    So, what you are saying is that you were wrong.

    "The Response" can mention that they have a guest speaker, who just happens to be the Governor, all they wish.

    Every thing the governor does is not "on behalf of the government" all the time.

    He did make the proclamation, so what? He didn't specify which god, or who to pray to.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  3. #383
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Who said anything about that? Now you are arguing that proof that a God exists does not disprove multiple Gods.
    No, I'm saying that by selecting an operational definition for god, and trying to "prove" that, does not in itself prove the existence of god. You can only assume your operational definition is accurate.

    But yes, I am amused that you believe you're taking a rational, scientific approach in basing your operational definition on a text written thousands of years ago. If you get this being to part the red sea, have you proven that "God" exists, or that "Poseidon" exists? or Oceanus? Or Moses? Or Baal? Or Chalchiuhtlicue? Or an alien being with powers to control the elements? Or one with psychic powers to make you believe you saw things you did not?

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    You are going at this backwards. The existence of a God does not prove Christianity, monotheism or any other religious tenet and that was never the point. It would disprove atheism.
    No, I was saying that we cannot disprove atheism because we cannot prove the existence of a god.

    Atheists decry theology as arbitrary and completely based on faith, but on the other hand espouse their own untestable, faith-based world view. Again, atheism is akin to a theory that deities do not exist. You may be able to "prove" through logical inconsistency that particular deities do not exist (at least as specified in a particular faith), but that will never prove the belief that "deities do not exist." Yes, you may greatly increase confidence in that belief, but never do you prove it to be true.

    So, from a scientific standpoint, we compare evidence consistent with theism versus evidence consistent with atheism and derive our conclusion based on the weight of the evidence. But we can neither prove or disprove either scientifically.


    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Are you kidding? You check to see if there is any sort of device at work that could cause it. There is nothing difficult about that.

    There is no reason why we can't conduct the test in an environment that is more easily controlled, though, if that is your concern.
    LOL - and you're confident you know of all such devices to look for and how to check whether they were used? Absurd. Five hundred years ago you could have conducted multiple tests in tighty controlled environments to verify whether a strange man claiming to have omniscient knowledge of the terrain, the weather, the location of roaming herds, human settlements in unexplored lands, moving armies, and spot-on accuracy of the geography of the world.

    Of course, to be sure, these sixteenth century philosopher-scientists would simply have had to rule out any device at work that could explain all of this, and there probably would have been "nothing difficult" about verifying that the information didn't come from a data feed sent by a satellite in geostationary orbit via the k band of the electromagnetic spectrum. It's all very simple, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    You are not taking a scientific position. Your view is DEFINITELY anti science. You are pretending that all proof is invalid or equally valid, whether it is vetted through the scientific method or not.
    You are only demonstrating that you don't understand science. The scientific method doesn't produce "proof" it produces evidence that is consistent or inconsistent with a theory or hypothesis. It never aims to prove a theory or hypothesis, because the process is inductive and therefore cannot logically provide proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Again, you are going at it backwards. I am not talking about proving any theory, but disproving the theory that God(s) do not exist.
    You are trying to make an argument based on falsifiability and have suggested that the atheistic view can be falsified by demonstrating the existence of a god. The problem with your position is that you are unable to demonstrate how we can conclusively prove that a god exists.

    You suggest this may be accomplished by asking god to perform a series of tasks that only god could do (i.e. miracles). As I have tried to stress, none of those acts, none of those "miracles" can be proven to be miracles scientifically. You suggest ways we might falsify a miracle ("check for a device that might explain it") but you cannot prove the act itself is a miracle.

    To claim otherwise shows your logic to be irrational - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Instead he wishes to stir up trouble. If he was just as private as Washington then few would bother to take notice.
    He/she isn't stirring up trouble.

    He/she didn't figure a bunch of buffoons would take offense to something as small as suggesting that those who are religious pray.

    :eyeroll:
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  5. #385
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Your error is the same as Taylor's. You are going at it backwards. Science does not prove, it tests and falsifies.
    I have contended this all along. It's actually you that are making this error with your belief that by observing the act of miracles ("only a God could [part the red sea] on command and without any other trickery") we can prove the existence of god.

    You suggest ways in which we might falsify this belief ("Are you kidding? You check to see if there is any sort of device at work that could cause it. There is nothing difficult about that.") but then go on to make the erroneous conclusion that the absence of evidence of any trickery is evidence of absence of any trickery and thus, we have "proven" god exists.

    Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Hmm... Constituition...... is that the name of YOUR god?
    No... but it's the supreme law of our country.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    So, what you are saying is that you were wrong.

    "The Response" can mention that they have a guest speaker, who just happens to be the Governor, all they wish.
    Yea... that's not what's happening. He's the "initiator" of the response. He's not a "guest speaker". Even if he was a guest speaker, if he's there in an official capacity as Governor... which he is, it's a violation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Every thing the governor does is not "on behalf of the government" all the time.
    Agreed, as I've stated before on this very thread. If he's there as private citizen Rick Perry... I have no problem (constitutionally).

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    He did make the proclamation, so what? He didn't specify which god, or who to pray to.
    Government don't have to be promoting one religion over another religion for there to be an establishment violation. Promoting religion over non-religion is enough.

    Just because the prayer rally isn't on the government webpage, doesn't mean he's not endorsing it in his official capacity as Governor.

    He didn't start the video "Hi, I'm Rick Perry". The leadership page doesn't say, "Rick Perry is our initiator". It says "GOVERNOR Rick Perry..."
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    He/she isn't stirring up trouble.

    He/she didn't figure a bunch of buffoons would take offense to something as small as suggesting that those who are religious pray.

    :eyeroll:
    This is a strawman. Nobody is "taking offense".

    We're stating that it's a violation of the establishment clause.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    This is a strawman. Nobody is "taking offense".

    We're stating that it's a violation of the establishment clause.
    Well, since you apparently cannot be convinced that this isn't a violation of your god, the establishment clause,.. I just have one question then..

    What are you going to do about it? Huh?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  10. #390
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    He/she isn't stirring up trouble.

    He/she didn't figure a bunch of buffoons would take offense to something as small as suggesting that those who are religious pray.

    :eyeroll:
    They figured just that. That is what this is about. They want to draw out those bothered by such displays and hold them up for attack. You don't honestly think these governors are stupid enough to believe that praying for rain is going to work? You underestimate them.

    Our founders considered it. Both Madison and Jefferson were very concerned about statements of faith from agents of the state. Jefferson avoided them. Madison repudiated legislative chaplains and national days of prayer after retiring from public life based on experience. Even Washington was careful about his displays of faith not just in his professional life, but in his private life, as well.

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