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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

  1. #351
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Just imagine if he had something like this.

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

    Some here would have likely demanded his expulsion from the history books even for a statement like that.

    Avalon Project - Washington's Farewell Address 1796
    No... not expulsion from the history books. I do disagree with his statement that people can't be moral without God.

    Once again though, just because politicians in the past have used their position to further religion, doesn't make it any less of an establishment clause violation.
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    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What does?
    I'm not trying to be mean, but if you go back and read the threads, I've already explained why what Rick Perry and the OK governor are doing regarding prayer are establishment violations. People have responded, we've gone back and forth, and I think we've had a pretty good discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I'm not trying to be mean, but if you go back and read the threads, I've already explained why what Rick Perry and the OK governor are doing regarding prayer are establishment violations. People have responded, we've gone back and forth, and I think we've had a pretty good discussion.
    Ok, fine, briefly tell me how this is un-constitutional. Do you mean the separation of church and state?

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Just imagine if he had something like this.

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

    Some here would have likely demanded his expulsion from the history books even for a statement like that.

    Avalon Project - Washington's Farewell Address 1796
    Hyperbolic nonsese. They might have asked for his resignation, oh wait.

    Washington WROTE this as he LEFT OFFICE and returned to the state of a PRIVATE CITIZEN. It would not have been as widely distributed as a statment from a government official is today. It was read only by those who had a strong interest in what he had to say. Further, he was not encouraging anyone to engage in a specific exercise of religion, but rather was commenting on his views of the general worth of religion. Still, many of the founders found this sort of expression as inappropriate.

    Rick Perry (edit: I guess it was Mary Fallin... whoever) should do the honorable thing and practice his faith privately. Instead he wishes to stir up trouble. If he was just as private as Washington then few would bother to take notice.
    Last edited by BayToBay; 07-20-11 at 11:56 AM.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Ok, fine, briefly tell me how this is un-constitutional. Do you mean the separation of church and state?
    Rick Perry acting in an official capacity as "Governor Rick Perry" is the initiator of a Prayer Rally whose main purpose is the advancement of religion, specifically Christianity.

    Doing so violates the establishment clause of the US constitution.

    Case Law shows that the test to determine if there is an establishment clause violation is the "Lemon Test".

    It has three parts. You need only fail one for it to be a violation.

    1. Government needs a secular purpose. (No secular purpose to the prayer rally)

    2. It must not have the primary purpose of advancing religion (The prayer rally's primary purpose is to advance religion, specifically Christianity)

    3. It must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion (We could argue all day about what is "excessive" but it doesn't matter because it's already failed the first two.)
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

  6. #356
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Rick Perry acting in an official capacity as "Governor Rick Perry" is the initiator of a Prayer Rally whose main purpose is the advancement of religion, specifically Christianity.

    Doing so violates the establishment clause of the US constitution.

    Case Law shows that the test to determine if there is an establishment clause violation is the "Lemon Test".

    It has three parts. You need only fail one for it to be a violation.

    1. Government needs a secular purpose. (No secular purpose to the prayer rally)

    2. It must not have the primary purpose of advancing religion (The prayer rally's primary purpose is to advance religion, specifically Christianity)

    3. It must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion (We could argue all day about what is "excessive" but it doesn't matter because it's already failed the first two.)
    I'm not trying to be mean, either; but this thread is about the governer of Ohio encouraging people to pray for rain.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Because obviously God is just a make-believe cartoon super action hero brought about by our superstitions and fears.

    Save it. We've heard it before. We're just not as intelligent as you.
    Happy you figured it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    No... not expulsion from the history books. I do disagree with his statement that people can't be moral without God.
    Which is absolutly fine. But not the point.

    Once again though, just because politicians in the past have used their position to further religion, doesn't make it any less of an establishment clause violation.
    Somehow I believe they knew better what was a violation than we do.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Hyperbolic nonsese. They might have asked for his resignation, oh wait.

    Washington WROTE this as he LEFT OFFICE and returned to the state of a PRIVATE CITIZEN. It would not have been as widely distributed as a statment from a government official is today.
    Not long ago it was taught to every school kid in America. But as I said, some would take actions to try and erase it from the history books.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Rick Perry acting in an official capacity as "Governor Rick Perry" is the initiator of a Prayer Rally whose main purpose is the advancement of religion, specifically Christianity.

    Doing so violates the establishment clause of the US constitution.

    Case Law shows that the test to determine if there is an establishment clause violation is the "Lemon Test".

    It has three parts. You need only fail one for it to be a violation.

    1. Government needs a secular purpose. (No secular purpose to the prayer rally)

    2. It must not have the primary purpose of advancing religion (The prayer rally's primary purpose is to advance religion, specifically Christianity)

    3. It must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion (We could argue all day about what is "excessive" but it doesn't matter because it's already failed the first two.)
    The "Lemon test" is not law. It's a guide that some use to make a determination. Others ignore and even when used, seperate jurists have still came to different conclusions.

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