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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    BS. If some sort of being can demonstrate omnipotence and/or omniscience then there is proof that such a being can and does exist. God could be proven if he existed.

    You are just under some stupid delusion that atheist are as delusional and unmoved by proof as believers. That is not the case. It is believers that operate on blind faith not atheists.
    I think the problem here is that "God" is such a nebulous term. It means so many different things to so many different people.

    If your "God" is the wind, or a force of nature, or something like that... it might be easier to prove than if your "God" is the creator of the universe. By the latter measure, even if a being was to show that he's all powerful in this universe, it doesn't mean that he/she/it made it. It would be a good start though.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I think the problem here is that "God" is such a nebulous term. It means so many different things to so many different people.

    If your "God" is the wind, or a force of nature, or something like that... it might be easier to prove than if your "God" is the creator of the universe. By the latter measure, even if a being was to show that he's all powerful in this universe, it doesn't mean that he/she/it made it. It would be a good start though.
    Believers refuse to give God a real definition because then it would be falisfiable. They insist on defining it as unknowable because then it is unassailable. Their belief is based on nothing but faith. It is not at all true that atheism must be based on the same sort of faith. There is no reason to believe that God is the wind or a force of nature or any of the other mythological nonsense and fairy tales that are the basis of religion. One need not employ faith to reject the argument from ignorance.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I think the problem here is that "God" is such a nebulous term. It means so many different things to so many different people.

    .
    Tell that to a Bible Thumper.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Believers refuse to give God a real definition because then it would be falisfiable. They insist on defining it as unknowable because then it is unassailable. Their belief is based on nothing but faith. It is not at all true that atheism must be based on the same sort of faith. There is no reason to believe that God is the wind or a force of nature or any of the other mythological nonsense and fairy tales that are the basis of religion. One need not employ faith to reject the argument from ignorance.
    I agree, faith is not needed to reject it. I was just pointing out that whether or not a god hypothesis can be proven or not depends on how you define that god. Some gods could be falsified, others not.

    Example 1: The idea of an "all good" and "all powerful" god makes that god logically inconsistent in a world where evil exists. That god can not exist.

    Example 2: "God is everything". That definition of god is too nebulous and isn't even really defined. By saying that god is everything you're saying he's nothing.

    Example 3: "God is the thing that created the universe." We don't know yet what created the universe and it may be unknowable. As such, that God can't be falsified.

    Depending on which god hypothesis you give will depend on which type of atheist I am towards it.

    To most god claims I'm an "agnostic atheist" meaning, I don't know if that god exists, but I don't believe in it"

    To some, like examples 1 and 2, I'm a "gnostic atheist" meaning, I know that god doesn't exist, and I don't believe in it."

    Religious people can use the agnostic/gnostic qualifier too. Some claim to "know there is a god and believe in it" (gnostic theist) and some claim not to know there is a god, but still believe there is one (agnostic theist).

    My main thrust was that falsifiability depends on the definition of the god claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    LOL, silly

    'Massive heat wave' on way; Okla. tries prayer - Weather - msnbc.com

    In the thick of the heat wave is Oklahoma where Gov. Mary Fallin asked Oklahomans to pray for rain this Sunday.

    "The power of prayer is a wonderful thing, and I would ask every Oklahoman to look to a greater power this weekend and ask for rain," Fallin said in a news release on Thursday.
    Fallin on Thursday also issued a ban on outdoor burning for the western half of the state because of the extreme drought conditions.

    ---
    Prayer does not work, never has, never will. There is ZERO scientific evidence. it only give people that warm fuzzy feeling.
    This almost sounds like religaphobia. Why else would some one start a thread attacking people for their faith in the power of prayer?

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    This almost sounds like religaphobia. Why else would some one start a thread attacking people for their faith in the power of prayer?
    Because it violates the constitution maybe?
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Unicorns are the legitimate scientific study of biology.
    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    By the way unicorns to science are not mythology. They can be studied by biology because they are an animal.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Just imagine if he had something like this.

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

    Some here would have likely demanded his expulsion from the history books even for a statement like that.

    Avalon Project - Washington's Farewell Address 1796
    Last edited by 1Perry; 07-20-11 at 11:20 AM. Reason: typo

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Because it violates the constitution maybe?
    What does?

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Just imagine if he had something like this.

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

    Some here would have likely demanded his expulsion from the history books even for a statement like that.

    Avalon Project - Washington's Farewell Address 1796

    I wouldn't believe anyone actually advocates Orwellian history revisions.

    However, CS Lewis has a wonderful quote for the moral busybodies.

    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Example 3: "God is the thing that created the universe." We don't know yet what created the universe and it may be unknowable. As such, that God can't be falsified.
    That's not a definition. It is a refusal to define, no different than the God is everything definition and just as worthless.

    My main thrust was that falsifiability depends on the definition of the god claim.
    That is quite true. However, belief in God depends on a definition of God too.

    Of course, one can not test a theory that does not exist or it is so vague as to be meaningless. Atheism can be tested and falisfied by anyone who cares to offer a theory of God and then offers proof of the theory or demonstrates the existence of the entity described as God.

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