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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I'm not familiar with the term creche but when I looked it up, it said nativity scene. If that's what you're referring, I think it too is a violation of the establishment clause. It doesn't "offend" me or anything like that, but I see no secular purpose for one. I think such a thing on government property (unless the government has created a public forum inviting people of all faiths to put up whatever they like) would fail the Lemon Test.
    Lynch v. Donnelly: Information from Answers.com

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    I know this thread was about the OK governor asking to pray for rain but seeing as how it's similar to what Rick Perry has done and is doing, check out this video.

    Looks like he's endorsing it in an official capacity.

    You can read what this guy (who teaches law) says on his blog as well. He cited County of Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union, Greater Pittsburgh Chapter (1989).

    "government may not promote or affiliate itself with any religious doctrine or organization..."
    Here's another funny side note:

    Matthew 6:5-6

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to (A)stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners [a](B)so that they may be seen by men. (C)Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 But you, when you pray, (D)go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and (E)your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
    WHOOPS!

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Viewing the display within the context of the city's celebration of a national public holiday, the majority concluded that the crèche served the legitimate secular purpose of symbolically depicting the historical origins of the Christmas holiday. In contrast, five years later, in Allegheny County v. ACLU Greater Pittsburgh Chapter (1989), the Court found the display of the crèche in a public building, ungarnished by other holiday decorations, to violate the Establishment Clause.
    In the first ruling they found that it had a secular purpose (even though another court ruled differently).

    What's the secular purpose for praying for rain?

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    "government may not promote or affiliate itself with any religious doctrine or organization..."

    He is full of crap. The government affiliates itself with religious organizations all the time. There are likely hundreds of examples one could come up with. A military chaplain would be one. The original link I posted about prayer in Congress would be one.

    But I only need to provide one example to prove the point wrong.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    In the first ruling they found that it had a secular purpose (even though another court ruled differently).

    What's the secular purpose for praying for rain?
    EXACTLY. While you saw it as not reaching the threshhold, justices did because that's how they wanted to rule. If this was some set in stone guideline there wouldn't be conflicting rulings would there?

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    EXACTLY. While you saw it as not reaching the threshhold, justices did because that's how they wanted to rule. If this was some set in stone guideline there wouldn't be conflicting rulings would there?
    Sure, different justices will rule differently. I never argued otherwise. But notice the test they used to determine that it was (in their opinion) not a violation of the establishment clause. They used the lemon test. They asked "Is there a secular purpose". They found (again, in there opinion) that there was a secular purpose.

    So... we apply that same test here.

    18 pages, still no secular purpose for praying for rain.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    "government may not promote or affiliate itself with any religious doctrine or organization..."

    He is full of crap. The government affiliates itself with religious organizations all the time. There are likely hundreds of examples one could come up with. A military chaplain would be one. The original link I posted about prayer in Congress would be one.

    But I only need to provide one example to prove the point wrong.
    He was quoting the decision in that case ruling. This wasn't his opinion.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think the two efforts are equivalent.
    Because you don't understand what it is like to be surrounded by those who disagree with you in such a violent way that it is clear they can barely keep themselves from attacking you. They are allowed to have their prayers, but if the atheist or minority religion, says "I disagree" he is just a troublemaker. Having an agent of the state that insists on using his office as a bully pulpit makes the fear of assault even greater because one cannot count on the state for protection. It should not be done, it is offensive and certainly chills speech and freedom of religion.

    The lawsuit is worthwhile, though I am not sure it is the best use of resources. Praying for rain is a complete waste of time.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    In the first ruling they found that it had a secular purpose (even though another court ruled differently).

    What's the secular purpose for praying for rain?
    Rain makes corn, corn makes whiskey, whiskey makes my baby feel a little frisky.
    Luke Bryan.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Polotick View Post
    Rain makes corn, corn makes whiskey, whiskey makes my baby feel a little frisky.
    Luke Bryan.
    Heh... you'd first have to prove that prayer causes rain.

    If you could do that, then yes... you'd have your secular purpose and I'd have no problem with it :-)

    Until then though :-)

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