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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

  1. #161
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    I was using compel improperly. Even if he asks us to as a request, it's still a violation because the request has no secular purpose.

    Would it be a violation for him to ask us to pray to a specific God? Say, Allah? It is after all... a request.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I see. If you were living back then, you would have stood with the Southern slaveholders in demanding slaves be counted 5/5 for the purposes of bringing revenue into Southern states. Knowing of course that those slaves would never see any benefit from that added revenue... quite the contrary.
    Tell me Great Seer of the Past, Present and Future, what else would I have done?

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That was a dumbass ruling too. I think that while we should watch for violation of church and state and work to keep our government secular; things like this prayer rally or even prayer in school are fine so long as it's not forced. I sometimes think we are getting well too touchy-feely for our own good. Get some thicker skin, let people do as they like. So long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others, people should be free to do as they like.
    People can do whatever they want. The state should not be involved. It encourages a culture that is hostile to other beliefs and creates an environment where people are afraid to challenge such nonsense for fear that they will not be protected from violent reprisal. It definitely should not be allowed in school as children are more easily persuaded by the influence of authority figures.

    I don't much care about a day of prayer because it just not a hill that is worth dyin on, today. That's my choice and not that of those bringing suit. I will let them do what they want. I certainly think their efforts are more worthwhile than those of a bunch of idiots praying for rain.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I was using compel improperly. Even if he asks us to as a request, it's still a violation because the request has no secular purpose.

    Would it be a violation for him to ask us to pray to a specific God? Say, Allah? It is after all... a request.
    No it wouldn't be. But if he asked to pray to Allah, he'd probably not be getting elected next time. If the government is not doing anything to entangle itself with the church, it cannot be said to be violation of establishment. He's not taking tax payer dollars and having a "Pray to the Christian God" day. There's no police coming around to make sure that you're going to pray. There's no requirement that you pray. There is no government force to compel the action. Without that, there cannot be establishment. The only reason the public school decision even flew was because it was a public school and thus funded by taxpayer dollars. It's still a bad decision because it infringes upon the individual's ability to practice and express their religion.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    I certainly think their efforts are more worthwhile than those of a bunch of idiots praying for rain.
    I think the two efforts are equivalent.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    God obviously likes for Oklahoma to get ice storms, wind, tornadoes, drought and heat waves. That's what he wants for that little frying pan shape of his creation because that's all he ever sends it. The real question is, why is the Governor of Oklahoma asking the citizens of the state to question the Good Lord's divine providence on this?

    This is a perfect example of why I became agnostic. The whole premise in what the governor is asking his citizens to do kind of make's God out to be just a total douche. It's like God is up there in heaven: "I am sending the people of Oklahoma the torment of drought and day after day of extreme heat, but if they all beg me enough, I might send them some rain, but only if they really beg me for it."
    Really, at least the volcano Gods held out for something slightly worthwhile, i.e., a virgin. The Christian God is a just a manic, narcissistic jerk.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I'm not familiar with the term creche but when I looked it up, it said nativity scene. If that's what you're referring, I think it too is a violation of the establishment clause. It doesn't "offend" me or anything like that, but I see no secular purpose for one. I think such a thing on government property (unless the government has created a public forum inviting people of all faiths to put up whatever they like) would fail the Lemon Test.
    Much like the Pagan tradition of the christmas tree.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Not at all. I'm not saying that atheists are correct either. I'm saying that religious people are the ones making the claim. The burden of proof is on them. Until they meet that burden, I'm justified in not believing their claim.

    Likewise, if atheists make the claim (as some do, but not all) "God does not exist", they'd have to back that claim up.

    Seeing as how god isn't even really clearly defined and not even a falsifiable proposition, I don't know how either side would go about backing up their claim.
    The position that God does not exists is falsifiable. Father Guido Sarducci gave an example of it at the Rally for Sanity. Just have God produce a rainbow or something on command.

    Father Guido Sarducci - Rally Benediction - Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear - Video Clip | Comedy Central

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    The position that God does not exists is falsifiable. Father Guido Sarducci gave an example of it at the Rally for Sanity. Just have God produce a rainbow or something on command.

    Father Guido Sarducci - Rally Benediction - Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear - Video Clip | Comedy Central
    No, a non-event is evidence of exactly nothing.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Polotick View Post
    Your comment was still rude. Not all people can "just quit" like you propose. If something helps someone get through a bad place then good, period. What won't help is people sitting in high and mighty judgement of those who need help.
    The idea that it is a "disease" makes the word meaningless and indistingusihable from any negative behavior. It is a denial of responsibility which is why they follow it with the higher power nonsense.

    I am not judging the alcoholic. AA does that by turning away those people that will not buy into their dogmatic bs. I am judging AA and its bs.

    AA IS very accepting if you don't say anything against their nonsense. That is where the group therapy comes in. They sit and tell each other about their fears, bad experiences, regrets, pain and all the rest without fear of judment or exposure. That is very effective in helping people to deal with the problems that may have lead them to abuse alcohol.

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