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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    As stated before, government doesn't have to "force" religion for there to be a violation. I've cited case law to back this argument up. Because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
    Yes it does in order for it to be a rightful violation in which another branch of government can legitimately then intercede, because in order to mix church and state you have to have action by the State. There has to be a force applied. Show me the force. If there is no force there can be no mixing as the government isn't DOING ANYTHING. Government operates through force, it's actions are various forms of force. To mix Church and State, there must be action, which means that the government must try to exert some amount of force.

    You cannot legitimately ban individuals from certain practices based on some absurd notion that it mixes church and state if there is no state action. There has to be a real and measurable quantity, measure it, come back and tell me the value. If you cannot, then you cannot legitimately claim improper government force (since that inherently requires GOVERNMENT FORCE).
    Last edited by Ikari; 07-15-11 at 05:17 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    It doesn't pass that test.
    I'll ask again. What part of a city government erecting a creche passes that test?

  3. #153
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    LOL, silly
    Personally, I hope it works.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Ships disappearing beyond the horizon show the curvature of the Earth.
    Yes, but there was some sort of argument against that. I forget what it was. There was already tons of circumstantial proof long before we were able to circumnavigate the earth. I was pointing out that one could conceive of a test that would conclusively prove that either position was false. Flat earthers, as stupid as that opinion is and was, WAS a valid scientific theory according to Popper's criteria. The idea of God is not. It is belief alone and can never be anything more, unless God comes down and falsifies the position that no God exists.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Recognizing that god cannot be proven is not tossing logic out the window.
    God can be proven. He can show himself or he could be discovered in an empirically observable way. He cannot be disproven, because the definition is based on supernatural bs.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Would it have been better that the people who owned slaved been able to use their slaves to get more representation? I would have to say the founders were pretty smart.
    Woulda been better if they actually gave a **** about all men being equal to begin with.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes it does in order for it to be a rightful violation in which another branch of government can legitimately then intercede, because in order to mix church and state you have to have action by the State. There has to be a force applied. Show me the force. If there is no force there can be no mixing as the government isn't DOING ANYTHING. Government operates through force, it's actions are various forms of force. To mix Church and State, there must be action, which means that the government must try to exert some amount of force.

    You cannot legitimately ban individuals from certain practices based on some absurd notion that it mixes church and state if there is no state action. There has to be a real and measurable quantity, measure it, come back and tell me the value. If you cannot, then you cannot legitimately claim improper government force (since that inherently requires GOVERNMENT FORCE).
    Despite your assertions to the contrary, I see no evidence that there needs to be coercion by the state or government for there to be a violation. In fact, case law would suggest the opposite.

    The governor is an agent of the state compelling his constituents to pray for rain. There is no secular purpose in that. It's only purpose is to advance religion. That's a violation of the establishment clause as it's outlined by the Lemon Test.

    I'm not butt hurt about it, it doesn't bother me, I'm not crying about it... please stop making this argument. It's a straw-man.

    I think we're just talking at each other at this point.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Polotick View Post
    The result was the same.

    Article I, Section. 2 [Slaves count as 3/5 persons]
    Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons [i.e., slaves].
    The 3/5ths of a person gave slave states representation disproportionate to the population of free persons. They should not have been counted at all. The slave state would then have had less power.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I'll ask again. What part of a city government erecting a creche passes that test?
    I'm not familiar with the term creche but when I looked it up, it said nativity scene. If that's what you're referring, I think it too is a violation of the establishment clause. It doesn't "offend" me or anything like that, but I see no secular purpose for one. I think such a thing on government property (unless the government has created a public forum inviting people of all faiths to put up whatever they like) would fail the Lemon Test.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Despite your assertions to the contrary, I see no evidence that there needs to be coercion by the state or government for there to be a violation. In fact, case law would suggest the opposite.
    In fact there does need to be actual force applied for there to be a violation. If there is no force, there is choice of the individual and that necessarily must be upheld over assuption and supposition with lack of actual evidence. To violate establishment, the government must actually be doing something to violate it. All government operates through various forms of force. For the government to do anything, it requires an amount of government force to do so. That's the actual dynamics, those are the measureables of the system. It's best to go off of measurement than bias and assumption as measurement tells us the world. If there is no force, then there can be no violation. It requires action from government. Government acts through force. In the end, the rights and liberties of the individual must be maintained if we wish to remain a free Republic. If you cannot prove government force against that; then there is no legitimate action which can be taken. In this case there is no force, merely a request. At no point is everyone made to pray, it's a choice. People can choose to participate. Nothing is conducted through the government. There is no actual law and there is no actual force. So how can there be violation without action?

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    The governor is an agent of the state compelling his constituents to pray for rain. There is no secular purpose in that. It's only purpose is to advance religion. That's a violation of the establishment clause as it's outlined by the Lemon Test.
    com·pel
       /kəmˈpɛl/ Show Spelled [kuhm-pel] Show IPA verb, -pelled, -pel·ling.
    –verb (used with object)
    1.
    to force or drive, especially to a course of action: His disregard of the rules compels us to dismiss him.
    2.
    to secure or bring about by force.
    3.
    to force to submit; subdue.
    4.
    to overpower.
    5.
    Archaic . to drive together; unite by force; herd.
    –verb (used without object)
    6.
    to use force.
    7.
    to have a powerful and irresistible effect, influence, etc.

    Where's the force?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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