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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    They are correct.
    The lemon test is applied towards laws.
    That is why the presidential proclamations for national days of prayer are not censured.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I think the governor of a state asking or urging people to pray is a form of legislation.
    I think the sky is purple, doesn't make it so. Legislation is created by the legislature. It becomes law when the legislation passes the Legislative branch and is signed into law by the Executive branch. The Executive (the governor in this case) cannot make legislation, he does not have the power to do so. A request is merely a request, nothing more. It does not call upon government force or action.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    And their claim hurts you in what way?
    I never said that they hurt me.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rev Kros View Post
    They are correct.
    The lemon test is applied towards laws.
    That is why the presidential proclamations for national days of prayer are not censured.
    I disagree. It was not a law that had prayer in schools, yet it was ruled as a violation of the establishment clause.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I disagree. It was not a law that had prayer in schools, yet it was ruled as a violation of the establishment clause.
    Because it was a bad ruling. There was no force. Everything with the "lemon test" revolves around government action. If there is no government action, there can be no violation of the "lemon test".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think the sky is purple, doesn't make it so. Legislation is created by the legislature. It becomes law when the legislation passes the Legislative branch and is signed into law by the Executive branch. The Executive (the governor in this case) cannot make legislation, he does not have the power to do so. A request is merely a request, nothing more. It does not call upon government force or action.
    I'll concede that it's not a form of legislation, I was wrong.

    However, any arm of the government has to act within the confines of the constitution. If the courts use the Lemon Test to determine if government legislation is deemed unconstitutional, then we should be able to use the same test to determine if this action is unconstitutional.

    It doesn't pass that test.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I'll concede that it's not a form of legislation, I was wrong.

    However, any arm of the government has to act within the confines of the constitution. If the courts use the Lemon Test to determine if government legislation is deemed unconstitutional, then we should be able to use the same test to determine if this action is unconstitutional.

    It doesn't pass that test.
    Show me the government force.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Because it was a bad ruling. There was no force. Everything with the "lemon test" revolves around government action. If there is no government action, there can be no violation of the "lemon test".
    You keep stating that "this was a bad ruling" says who? You?

    I'm sorry I don't accept your opinion as authority on this matter.

    Prayer in public schools does mix religion and government which is why it is illegal to teach creationism in school. Both are violations of the establishment clause.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Show me the government force.
    As stated before, government doesn't have to "force" religion for there to be a violation. I've cited case law to back this argument up. Because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    You keep stating that "this was a bad ruling" says who? You?

    I'm sorry I don't accept your opinion as authority on this matter.

    Prayer in public schools does mix religion and government which is why it is illegal to teach creationism in school. Both are violations of the establishment clause.
    Only if the public schools were actively endorsing it. Which is an action. Prayer in school when performed by the individual does NOT mix religion and government. I also think not allowing creationism to be taught in school is BS too. It doesn't belong in the science classroom because it's not a science theory. But theology has had a profound and marked affect on the course of human societal evolution and because of the impact it has had, it is a valid academic subject. It's like saying you can't take classes on Greek Mythology because it mixes church and state. Of course no rational individual would say so. So long as it is teaching and not preaching, there is no problem. But this is what I mean, the government is never going to turn down an opportunity to involve itself in a matter. It likes to expand its power. But people are getting so pissy over the mere mention of religion that we start shutting down freedom; and that's the WRONG direction to go. It's idiotic.

    I'm one of the first people here to jump on the back of government and complain when they are doing things they should not be doing. But the governor of OK asking people to pray for rain just isn't the violation you perceive it to be. Unlike the TSA, here there is actually no force. If you weren't going to pray for rain, there is no mechanism to make you do so. Without government force and action, you cannot have a mixing of state and church. I'm tired of this loss of rational and logical argument in this country. We're becoming the biggest f'n babies on the planet.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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