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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

  1. #131
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    No such requirement exists.
    Check out earlier in posts. Courts use the Lemon Test to determine if things like this are constitutional. The first part of the Lemon Test requires a secular purpose.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I agree, people should have the right to do what they want so long as they're not infringing on the rights of other people.

    I don't see any problem with the prayer rally (constitutionally), so long as he's there in a personal and not governmental status.

    This has nothing to do with thick skin. I'm not "offended" that people are praying, that's a strawman. Whether or not you agree or disagree or think it is or isn't a big deal is not the issue.

    From a legal standpoint, this looks like a violation of the establishment clause. Unless someone can put forth a secular purpose.

    Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
    I don't see how it could be a violation of the establishment clause when they are not establishing a religion or promoting one religion over another. He merely asked for people to pray. Is it fruitful? Probably not, prayer doesn't really affect weather patterns. But whatever. It's not this big violation people think it to be. There's no law, no one is being forced, no one church is being promoted above another. I think the people crying about this are crying for crying's sake. There's no point in making this an issue, it's about as worthwhile as praying for rain.
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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Check out earlier in posts. Courts use the Lemon Test to determine if things like this are constitutional. The first part of the Lemon Test requires a secular purpose.
    No they don't. Courts use the lemon test to see if things like statutes are constitutional.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    It'll eventually make it to the supreme court. Social change is usually incremental. You win some battles, you lose some. Look at gay marriage in CA. That's gone back and forth how many times now?
    I would never argue that the ban was Constitutional. It really doesn't affect me what others do.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I don't see how it could be a violation of the establishment clause when they are not establishing a religion or promoting one religion over another.
    Check out post #45

    Traditionally in courts they use what is called a "Lemon Test" to determine if the act is constitutional. So let's apply it here.

    1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
    ... Not seeing a "secular" purpose to asking people to pray to a deity.

    2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
    ...asking people to pray seems like advancing religion to me.

    3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
    ... We could argue til the end of days what is "excessive" but in my mind "excessive" is any entanglement.

    All 3 conditions do not have to be met. Only one. Yet, I think it's clear that the action we're discussing fail this test.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    He merely asked for people to pray. Is it fruitful? Probably not, prayer doesn't really affect weather patterns. But whatever. It's not this big violation people think it to be. There's no law, no one is being forced, no one church is being promoted above another. I think the people crying about this are crying for crying's sake. There's no point in making this an issue, it's about as worthwhile as praying for rain.
    All your other contentions (it being required, promotion of one religion over another, etc.) are irrelevant to the question of constitutionality.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    No they don't. Courts use the lemon test to see if things like statutes are constitutional.
    Actually, they use the Lemon Test for any type of legislation...

    Legislation (or "statutory law") is law which has been promulgated (or "enacted") by a legislature or other governing body, or the process of making it. (Another source of law is judge-made law or case law.) Before an item of legislation becomes law it may be known as a bill, and may be broadly referred to as "legislation" while it remains under consideration to distinguish it from other business. Legislation can have many purposes: to regulate, to authorize, to proscribe, to provide (funds), to sanction, to grant, to declare or to restrict.
    I think the governor of a state asking or urging people to pray is a form of legislation.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Not at all. I'm not saying that atheists are correct either. I'm saying that religious people are the ones making the claim. The burden of proof is on them. Until they meet that burden, I'm justified in not believing their claim.

    Likewise, if atheists make the claim (as some do, but not all) "God does not exist", they'd have to back that claim up.

    Seeing as how god isn't even really clearly defined and not even a falsifiable proposition, I don't know how either side would go about backing up their claim.
    And their claim hurts you in what way?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Actually, they use the Lemon Test for any type of legislation...
    There is absolutely nothing requiring any justice anywhere use these guides. They are sometimes by some, dismissed by others, and used when when convienent by others.

    Just like with any ruling, the individual justice is going to disagree on what is a secular position etc.

    Would a city erecting a creche not conflict with all three points?

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Check out post #45





    All your other contentions (it being required, promotion of one religion over another, etc.) are irrelevant to the question of constitutionality.
    The "lemon test" came about because of actual law though. They were funding religious schools (predominately Catholic) with government money by reimbursing the schools for "secular" material. OK, there's a clear action by the State there and you can make an argument. But there is no use of government force here in what we're talking about. There's no law, there's no force, there is only a request. I think that if we are to remain true to the Republic; we can't get our underwear in a knot over something like this. It's not a violation, there's nothing the government is doing to force action. 1, 2, and 3 do not apply in this case as there is no government action.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Actually, they use the Lemon Test for any type of legislation...
    Oh really? What, other than statues, would you include as being "any type of legislation"

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I think the governor of a state asking or urging people to pray is a form of legislation.
    ...which is patently ridiculous.

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