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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    It doesn't have to be a law to be a violation of the establishment clause either. See "prayer in schools".
    Like the Engel v. Vitale (1962) case, that was a case of forcing someone do something.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster

    Again... unless the government has a secular purpose for this, it's unconstitutional. That's not me saying it... that's case law precedence.
    How is this case different than a politician asking people to pray for victims/families in a disaster, which happens all the time.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I understand the statement. Did you see the ruling on a National Day of Prayer? Did you note that your case (Engel v. Vitale (1962)) is something entirely different than what was done here?
    I did see the ruling on National Day of Prayer. I have to re-read it (it's been a minute) but I believe the judge made the same fallacy by saying that there was no compulsion, that it was voluntary. Still, there's no secular reason for having the national day of prayer.

    But that's another thread...

    Also, I do realize that the case had to do with forcing kids to pray, but the precedence in the ruling is the same. The case as a whole doesn't apply to this situation but the statement about it not having to be government compulsion does.


    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Perhaps you need to inform Congress of this?
    Many have and continue to. Social change doesn't happen over night.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    I wonder where are all the kneejerk morons are that freak out about God and prayer when a democrat president asks people to pray for...say...the country, soldiers, soldiers families, etc. That you people even bother with this stuff speaks VOLUMES. About you.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I did see the ruling on National Day of Prayer. I have to re-read it (it's been a minute) but I believe the judge made the same fallacy by saying that there was no compulsion, that it was voluntary. Still, there's no secular reason for having the national day of prayer.

    But that's another thread...

    Also, I do realize that the case had to do with forcing kids to pray, but the precedence in the ruling is the same. The case as a whole doesn't apply to this situation but the statement about it not having to be government compulsion does.
    There have been many rulings since then that have fallen in the same direction as the National Day of Prayer did. A government employee does not lose their Constitutional rights when they become a government employee.

    Many have and continue to. Social change doesn't happen over night.
    So basically you just don't like it. That doesn't trump anyones rights.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Like the Engel v. Vitale (1962) case, that was a case of forcing someone do something.
    Agreed. I was using a statement within that case's ruling to support my argument that compulsion was not needed for their to be an establishment clause violation, not the case as a whole. As you stated, the case as a whole did have government compulsion involved.

    So... that case law supports two arguments.

    1. Compulsion does not need to be proven in order for there to be a violation.

    2. Establishing a law does not need to happen before there is a violation.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I don't understand the purpose of asking people to pray for rain in the first place.

    Does god give preferential treatment to prayers that come from a lot of people instead of just one?
    And I don't understand why you care. Are you worried that prayer requests might compel you to convert? I see no connection between this issue and the concerns that led to the establishment clause. I'm willing to bet that many of the authors of the constitution engaged in similar behavior.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    There have been many rulings since then that have fallen in the same direction as the National Day of Prayer did. A government employee does not lose their Constitutional rights when they become a government employee.
    Agreed, but at the same time that government employee can't use their position to foster religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    So basically you just don't like it. That doesn't trump anyones rights.
    No, it wouldn't trump anyone's rights. I'm not trying to trump anyone's rights. I'm saying the prayer that congress holds has no secular purpose and is therefore a violation.

    The fact that it hasn't been taken to court and ruled unconstitutional "yet", doesn't mean that it is constitutional.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I wonder where are all the kneejerk morons are that freak out about God and prayer when a democrat president asks people to pray for...say...the country, soldiers, soldiers families, etc. That you people even bother with this stuff speaks VOLUMES. About you.
    For the record, I think that's silly too. It's as silly to me as saying, "May the flying spaghetti monster be with our troops, let's all pray that they are touched by his noodley appendage."

    I don't care if it's a democrat or a republican saying it.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    And I don't understand why you care. Are you worried that prayer requests might compel you to convert? I see no connection between this issue and the concerns that led to the establishment clause. I'm willing to bet that many of the authors of the constitution engaged in similar behavior.
    It doesn't matter if I care. Personally, the prayer doesn't bother me at all. I will not burst into flames if I hear a prayer.

    That doesn't negate the fact that there's no secular purpose for it.

    Until someone can provide one, I don't see how this is not a violation.

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