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Thread: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Whether or not he told them to pray or suggested that they pray is irrelevant when it comes to determining if this is a constitutional violation. "The establishment clause DOES NOT depend upon direct governmental compulsion".
    I've already pointed out that we do that everyday in Congress. The article above shows where the idea of a leader simply promoting prayer is not Unconstitutional.

    The government has to have a secular purpose for asking people, urging people, or telling people to pray. If it doesn't have a secular purpose, it fails the Lemon Test and is unconstitutional.

    Asking for people to pray is unconstitutional for the same reasons asking people to blaspheme is unconstitutional.
    Tell you what....you go with lemons and I'll go with the Constitution.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Engel v. Vitale (1962)

    "The establishment clause...does not depend upon a showing of direct governmental compulsion..."

    You can have violations of the establishment clause without establishing a state/government religion.

    Government shall make no law RESPECTING and establishment of religion.
    No, you can violate the establishment clause without having direct government compulsion. Your case says nothing as to the need to establish a state religion. IE, the establishment clause doesn't see much difference between saying "We urge you to go to your local Catholic Dioceses and pray for the well being of our troops" or "We emplore you all, go to your local synagogue and pray that YHWH give us guidance in these trying economic times" and passing a law saying people must attend Catholic Church or practice Judaism.

    However, that's entirely different than simply asking people to pray in a general sense, specifically not referencing any specific religion or form of spiriturality.

    Suggesting people perform a religious or spiritual activity is not establishing a state religion, either by direct or indirect compulsion.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    I think they'll lose unless they can prove he's attending in an official governmental capacity. If he's there as Rick Perry (the private citizen) they'll probably lose.
    He is titled as the Initiator of the Response and listed on the Leadership page.
    Leadership | The Response: August 6, 2011

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Engel v. Vitale (1962)

    "The establishment clause...does not depend upon a showing of direct governmental compulsion..."

    You can have violations of the establishment clause without establishing a state/government religion.

    Government shall make no law RESPECTING and establishment of religion.
    You do realize that this ruling dealt with forcing kids to say a prayer, right? I'm not going to defend doing that either but it's not relevant to this.
    Last edited by 1Perry; 07-15-11 at 03:18 PM.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    That's probably because your politics tells you there's crap in science. Im not saying there isnt. I dont know, im not a scientist and i try not to listen to "opinions" based on science. if anything, i'll look at scientific journals that have peer reviews.
    I am a scientist. One of the first things you learn in your first year of graduate school is that there's a lot of crappy science. And by that, I mean there's a lot of crappy peer-reviewed science. One of my professors who was one of the most inluential and certainly the most prolific researcher in the field (I.e. wicked smart) told me that among top tier journals, he was typically only able to identify 2 or 3 papers in any given issue that were free of critical errors in methodology or interpretation.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    Government shall make no law RESPECTING and establishment of religion.
    No pray for rain law was enacted as far as I can tell.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Tell you what....you go with lemons and I'll go with the Constitution.
    ???

    The lemon test is used to determine if it violates the constitution. I'm afraid I don't understand your statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    No, you can violate the establishment clause without having direct government compulsion. Your case says nothing as to the need to establish a state religion. IE, the establishment clause doesn't see much difference between saying "We urge you to go to your local Catholic Dioceses and pray for the well being of our troops" or "We emplore you all, go to your local synagogue and pray that YHWH give us guidance in these trying economic times" and passing a law saying people must attend Catholic Church or practice Judaism.

    However, that's entirely different than simply asking people to pray in a general sense, specifically not referencing any specific religion or form of spiriturality.

    Suggesting people perform a religious or spiritual activity is not establishing a state religion, either by direct or indirect compulsion.
    Check the case law on it man. I'm not making this stuff up. The establishment clause doesn't ONLY prohibit the advancement of one religion over another, but of any religion over none.

    Again... unless the government has a secular purpose for this, it's unconstitutional. That's not me saying it... that's case law precedence.

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    No pray for rain law was enacted as far as I can tell.
    It doesn't have to be a law to be a violation of the establishment clause either. See "prayer in schools".

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    I don't understand the purpose of asking people to pray for rain in the first place.

    Does god give preferential treatment to prayers that come from a lot of people instead of just one?

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    Re: Gov. urges Oklahomans to pray for rain

    Quote Originally Posted by SlackMaster View Post
    ???

    The lemon test is used to determine if it violates the constitution. I'm afraid I don't understand your statement.
    I understand the statement. Did you see the ruling on a National Day of Prayer? Did you note that your case (Engel v. Vitale (1962)) is something entirely different than what was done here?

    Again... unless the government has a secular purpose for this, it's unconstitutional. That's not me saying it... that's case law precedence.
    Perhaps you need to inform Congress of this?

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