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McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

The Barbarian said:
Bull

*March 20, 2006: This was the last stand-alone debt limit vote on which then-Senator Obama voted. He
was one of 48 members to vote against the increase, which passed with 52 votes. And that vote was dead along party lines .. the 48 members voting against raising the debt ceiling were all democrats

n March 16, 006, then Illinois Senator Obama was opposed to hiking the ceiling, noting:*“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren.

Reid said:
“If my Republican friends believe that increasing our debt by almost $800 billion today and more than $3 trillion over the last five years is the right thing to do, they should be upfront about it. They should explain why they think more debt is good for the economy.
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Once again, the dems did not vote against it because they are ideologically opposed to increasing the debt. Their position is that sometimes debt is OK, and sometimes not OK. Therefore, being sometimes for debt and sometimes against it is not hypocritical. It is consistent with their beliefs

The repubs, on the other hand, make a big show about how they oppose the debt and deficit spending.....except when they are in the majority. Suddenly deficit spending and debt is not a problem....It's a necessity!!!!

It's OK If You're A Republican
 
The Barbarian said:
breaks out laughing ........ and what else could he say at this point in time about his vote against raising the debt ???? Either he was wrong then .. . or he is wrong now ..
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He could have done what the repubs always do and deny having made a mistake, and instead say "This time, it's necessary"
 
JohnWOlin said:
Does anyone else have this feeling that everyone in D.C. knows something we don't know? Ie, this is all one big ****ing game to all of them?
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Yep. The debt ceiling will be raised. Bet money on it

Everything else is just a Kabuki play designed to convince the supporters of both parties that their representatives are fighting for them
 
JohnWOlin said:
I read it over again and thought about it: This is the Republicans way of letting Obama have his way, and show that they will not compromise with the president in anyways whatsoever. Basically, they can tell their voters its Obama's "fault" the debt ceiling is raised and they never technically broke their promises. Meanwhile, the nation goes on, debt ceiling raised no strings attached. Hey, could of had $3 cuts for every $1 revenue but, we'll take nothing instead. Sounds reasonable?
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Exactly!! They don't really want to cut spending. The repubs depend on govt spending just as much as the dems do.
 
Jeezy said:
...that's great and all, but it has very little to do with what we were talking about. Never once did I address the constitutionality of the plan. We were talking about austerity in general.

Still waiting for a response to post #26.
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I see what you're saying, Jeezy, but it's not that simple. You see, per Art 1, Sect 9, clause 6 of the U.S. Constitution, it is Congress' responsibility to determine exactly what those "appropriations" are under the law. If they don't adhere to Art 1, Sect 8, clause 2, they place the Treasury's ability to pay for those appropriations in jeapordy effectively "passing the buck" - being derelect in their duties as members of Congress. While it is true that Treasury would have to pay bills anyway, its job becomes that much harder because without the ability to borrow money since revenues are thin (remember, Treasury isn't collecting enough income taxes to keep pace with spending obligations) it has to pick and choose which bills to pay.

To that, you are correct. IF Treasure decides to pay only those debt obligations (appropriations) listed on page 13 of the report, it wouldn't be maximizing it's "bang for the buck" as much as it would be if it had chosen to pay for those debt obligations listed on page 16 as the total amounts are nearly identical. Just so everyone understands what Jeezy and I are talking about here:

From page 13 of the report (all figures in billions):

Defense Vendor Payments (page 13) = $31.7

From page 16 of the report (all figures in billions):

Food/Nutrition Services + TANF = $9.3
HUD Programs = $6.7
Veterans Affairs Programs = $2.9
Special Education Grants = $3.6
Tuition Assistance = $10.4
Total = $32.9

Diff between expenditures on page 16 from page 13 = $1.2 billion ($173.9 - 172.7)
 
GPS_Flex said:
McConnell is a buffoon. Why doesn’t he just ask the President to deem the legislation passed like the House did with health care?
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You're the only other person in this thread who caught that! And I'll answer the question for the viewing audience...

It's because they (the GOP) doesn't want to be seen as the party of hypocrites!! They know that if they used procedures like "Deem and Pass" or "Reconciliation" to get this debt ceiling measure passed they'd be seen as being no different than the Democrats when they passed health care reform.

JohnWOlin said:
I read it over again and thought about it: This is the Republicans way of letting Obama have his way, and show that they will not compromise with the president in anyways whatsoever. Basically, they can tell their voters its Obama's "fault" the debt ceiling is raised and they never technically broke their promises. Meanwhile, the nation goes on, debt ceiling raised no strings attached. Hey, could of had $3 cuts for every $1 revenue but, we'll take nothing instead. Sounds reasonable?
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We have another winner here, ladies and gentlemen! The GOP leadership is attempting to skirt their Constitutional responsibilities here!! Now, I ask those who claim to be such stauch defenders of the Constitution ARE YOU GOING TO STAND BY AND LET THIS HAPPEN or ARE YOU GOING TO HOLD YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS RESPONSIBLE TO UPHOLDING THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL OATH?

Will you allow party politics to rule the day or will you insist that your elected officials put country ahead of politics? You choose, but choose wisely. Our nation's sovereignty, our economic and military might may just be at stake if Congress continues down this dangerous path of playing political games.
 
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Objective Voice said:
You're the only other person in this thread who caught that! And I'll answer the question for the viewing audience...

It's because they (the GOP) doesn't want to be seen as the party of hypocrites!! They know that if they used procedures like "Deem and Pass" or "Reconciliation" to get this debt ceiling measure passed they'd be seen as being no different than the Democrats when they passed health care reform.
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Is that why the repubs spent our money like a herd of drunken sailors on leave, after campaigning on cutting spending? Because they didn't want to be seen as hypocrits
 
sangha said:
Is that why the repubs spent our money like a herd of drunken sailors on leave, after campaigning on cutting spending? Because they didn't want to be seen as hypocrits
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It's not the spending that I was referring to here. It's the way certain members of the GOP leadership are trying to skirt their responsibilities under the Constitution and basically "delegate" same to the President instead of taking alittle political heat just to save face or their jobs instead of doing what's right for the country. Both Speaker Boehner and Sen. McConnell know full well they can't let the debt limit deadline pass without raising it. They know the consequences financially and politically for doing nothing. But they don't want to put their necks out and "buck their party" and face retribution. (And to be honest, neither do the Democrats). But here's the rub...

The Democrats have offerred up far more than the Republicans and the people are beginning to take notice. So, again I ask "loyalty to party, or loyalty to country"?
 
Objective Voice said:
It's not the spending that I was referring to here. It's the way certain members of the GOP leadership are trying to skirt their responsibilities under the Constitution and basically "delegate" same to the President instead of taking alittle political heat just to save face or their jobs instead of doing what's right for the country. Both Speaker Boehner and Sen. McConnell know full well they can't let the debt limit deadline pass without raising it. They know the consequences financially and politically for doing nothing. But they don't want to put their necks out and "buck their party" and face retribution. (And to be honest, neither do the Democrats). But here's the rub...

The Democrats have offerred up far more than the Republicans and the people are beginning to take notice. So, again I ask "loyalty to party, or loyalty to country"?
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You said that the repubs don't want to look like hypocrits. If the desire to not look like hypocrits guides the repubs words and deeds, then why did they spend so much after campaigning on cutting the budget?

IOW, my argument is that repubs don't give a rats' patootie about looking like hypocrits, and their actions have repeatedly proven this true

Another example is how all teabagging whiners promised to make jobs their #1 priority if they were elected. Once elected, they started out pushing for abortion bills and still have not even voted just once on any jobs bill. In fact, they have pushed for laws that would kill jobs.

Boehner: If Jobs Are Lost As A Result Of GOP Spending Cuts 'So Be It' | TPMDC

If House Republicans succeed in cutting tens of billions of dollars in discretionary spending over the next six months, some of the most immediate victims will be federal employees, many of whose jobs will be slashed as their agencies pare back.

At a press conference in the lobby of RNC headquarters Tuesday morning, House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) shrugged this off as collateral damage.

"In the last two years, under President Obama, the federal government has added 200,000 new federal jobs," Boehner said. "If some of those jobs are lost so be it. We're broke."
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Mr. Invisible said:
Yeah I know man. That austerity has been working great for the European countries right? I mean, it isn't like they've been having mass riots or anything, ya know?
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The auseterity measure don't work as well in Europe because many more people in those countries are dependent on the government for their existence. There are a lot of politicians in this country wanting us to head the same way. That is why they don't want to roll back government spending. Austrerity is a hinderance to their poltical power.
 
just trying to represent the american people

According to [Gallup], 53 percent of people who say they’re following the debt limit debate very closely said they want their member of Congress to vote against raising it. Just 37 percent said they wanted a vote to increase it.

And just 34 percent of those who say they’re following the debate told Gallup they think not raising the limit would result in an economic crisis.
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Poll: Most say don't raise debt limt | POLITICO 44

americans know---if something isn't done NOW to fundamentally reform our budgets, then our big 3 federal programs (as well as state pensions) will, put bluntly, die

kinda like the old soviet union

americans like their programs

or, more accurately, THEY'VE PUT A LOT OF MONEY IN EM

as for making good on the 61.6 trillion which doubles every ten years---there aint enough moolah in the milky way can make it right

americans know

leadership, anyone?

seeya at the polls, pals
 
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The Prof said:
just trying to represent the american people



Poll: Most say don't raise debt limt | POLITICO 44

americans know---if something isn't done NOW to fundamentally reform our budgets, then our big 3 federal programs (as well as state pensions) will, put bluntly, die

kinda like the old soviet union

americans like their programs

or, more accurately, THEY'VE PUT A LOT OF MONEY IN EM

as for making good on the 61.6 trillion which doubles every ten years---there aint enough moolah in the milky way can make it right

americans know

leadership, anyone?

seeya at the polls, pals
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An AP-GfK Poll shows that 81% of all americans support raising the debt ceiling

Budget/Taxes
 
We all know something needs to happen, and it should already have happened. It's the Republicans somehow trying to pretend they play no part in this, they want no responsibility for this, that is the hold up.

They want it all to be on Obama. McConnell came out and said so.
 
your link:

"In general, do you support, oppose or neither support nor oppose raising the federal debt limit in order to avoid defaulting on U.S. government debts?"

Support Oppose Neither Unsure
% % % %
38 41 18 3
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ap-gfk, june 16 to 20, 38% support, 41 oppose

YouTube - Twilight Zone intro
 
sangha said:
You said that the repubs don't want to look like hypocrits. If the desire to not look like hypocrits guides the repubs words and deeds, then why did they spend so much after campaigning on cutting the budget?

IOW, my argument is that repubs don't give a rats' patootie about looking like hypocrits, and their actions have repeatedly proven this true

Another example is how all teabagging whiners promised to make jobs their #1 priority if they were elected. Once elected, they started out pushing for abortion bills and still have not even voted just once on any jobs bill. In fact, they have pushed for laws that would kill jobs.

Boehner: If Jobs Are Lost As A Result Of GOP Spending Cuts 'So Be It' | TPMDC
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I'd say we're both right. The GOP leadership is trying to pass the buck and leave the country's rise or fall squarely on the backs of the Democrats and the President. IMO, they'd be abdocating the very fiscally responsible conservatism they petitioned for to win the midterm elections. Moreover, McConnells stupid "fallback plan" in my view is a disgrace to his oath to uphold the Constitution and would be no different than the alledge underhanded dealings the GOP blamed the Dems for doing in passing health care reform.

Take responsibility for the mess you helped create and stop worrying more about your political profile than the true faith and credit and soveriegnty of the nation! :mad:
 
Objective Voice said:
I'd say we're both right. The GOP leadership is trying to pass the buck and leave the country's rise or fall squarely on the backs of the Democrats and the President. IMO, they'd be abdocating the very fiscally responsible conservatism they petitioned for to win the midterm elections. Moreover, McConnells stupid "fallback plan" in my view is a disgrace to his oath to uphold the Constitution and would be no different than the alledge underhanded dealings the GOP blamed the Dems for doing in passing health care reform.

Take responsibility for the mess you helped create and stop worrying more about your political profile than the true faith and credit and soveriegnty of the nation! :mad:
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There's definitely nothing I can disagree with in that post. How dare you!! :wink:
 
Objective Voice said:
I'd say we're both right. The GOP leadership is trying to pass the buck and leave the country's rise or fall squarely on the backs of the Democrats and the President. IMO, they'd be abdocating the very fiscally responsible conservatism they petitioned for to win the midterm elections. Moreover, McConnells stupid "fallback plan" in my view is a disgrace to his oath to uphold the Constitution and would be no different than the alledge underhanded dealings the GOP blamed the Dems for doing in passing health care reform.

Take responsibility for the mess you helped create and stop worrying more about your political profile than the true faith and credit and soveriegnty of the nation! :mad:
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They are an embarrassment.
 
Deuce said:
solletica said:
The proper strategy for Obama to pursue here, if he wants to accomplish anything, is not to waste time negotiating w/the GOPers, but rather to dig up politically compromising information on them (i. e. is Boner boning someone else other than his wife? What about mcconnell?) and then use it as a threat to extort what we wants. I fail to understand why Obama, w/the spying resources of the NSA, has yet to compile an extramarital affairs database on all GOP pols.

Or if Obama doesn't want to do that, he should deal directly with the GOPerpols' sponsors. boner, mcconnell, etc. are working for them only, so why bother discussing things w/the employee instead of the employer?
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I find it very interesting that you would refer to this tactic as "proper."
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I think I should have said it's the civilized strategy.
 
The Prof said:
your link:



ap-gfk, june 16 to 20, 38% support, 41 oppose

YouTube - Twilight Zone intro
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People support raising the debt ceiling for reasons other than to avoid default

"Which comes closest to your view? Congress should increase the debt ceiling first to avoid a default on federal debt, and discuss spending cuts and deficit reduction separately. Congress should ONLY increase the debt ceiling if it makes significant spending cuts at the same time, even if that means there will be considerable reductions in government services and programs. OR, Congress should NOT increase the debt ceiling under any circumstances, even if that means the U.S. defaults on its debt." Options rotated


Increase debt !! Increase only !! Should not increase, even Unsure Refused
ceiling, then !! if makes cuts !! if U.S. defaults
discuss cuts !! at same time !!

34 43 18 4 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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jambalaya said:
The auseterity measure don't work as well in Europe because many more people in those countries are dependent on the government for their existence. There are a lot of politicians in this country wanting us to head the same way. That is why they don't want to roll back government spending. Austrerity is a hinderance to their poltical power.
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Sure, Western European politicians, in order to get elected, promised programs which would make a majority of the citizenry dependent on their governments and these same politicians, in order to get re-elected, promised ever more program for "the ordinary people", which in turn created ever more dependent 'ordinary people'.

Now we see the 'ordinary people' rioting in the streets of Europe because the promises made were false, just as false as the something for nothing promises most politicians everywhere make in order to get elected. The honest ones who don't make these promises are defined as being in the pockets of the rich, uncharitable, greedy and rapacious, while these same ordinary people demand that others, 'the rich', give them their money, never seeing the hypocrisy in their own words. It is they who are never satisfied but who always want more.

Unscrupulous politicians always use Hope, Change and a free ride theme, every last one of them,. and always spoken as though this time it really, really is true. And there will always be those poor dum buggers who believe them.
 
I don't like that the President has veto power or executive signing authority. Congress should never have given him those powers.

Congress represents the People and if congress cannot come to a solution about the debt ceiling then the People have effectively spoken.

That's on paper though. In reality, congress is infested by cronies and obstructionists who are only there to serve themselves. I think we need to fire the traitorous lot of them and replace them with fresh candidates who understand what it means to do what's best for the nation.
 
Temporal said:
I don't like that the President has veto power or executive signing authority. Congress should never have given him those powers.
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Congress didn't provide either. Veto power is granted by the Constitution, signing statements have no "power" in and of themselves.
 
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