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Thread: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

  1. #71
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    Re: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I think both of you are wrong and here's why:

    Art 1, Sect 9, clause 6 of the U.S. Constitution:



    Congress wrote the laws and affixed appropriations to same. The appropriations were scored by the appropriate committee in each chamber of Congress (for the House, the Weighs and Means Committee; for the Senate, the Senate Finance Committee). The bills were then scored by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) who informs Congress how much their bill will actually cost - too much, not enough - among other things. If Congress doesn't go back and revised the numbers, as necessary, whose fault is it then really for putting this country in financial disarray? Congress knows just as the Treasury what's at stake here.

    Congress made this mess. It's Congress' responsibility to do the right thing and clean it up!! The President has laid down the framework under which Congress has to work out their differences. Either they step up and meet the nation's financial obligations, or they've violated their oath to uphold the Constitution.

    As per Sen. McConnell's proposal on handling the debt ceiling, IMO it's unconstitutional and here's why:

    Art 1, Sect 8, clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution:



    This is one of Congress' enumerated powers. To delegate - correction...FORCE - this responsibility onto the President is a derelections of his duty as a U.S. Senator to uphold the Constitution. Nevermind that the process he's proposing IMO would also be unconstitutional. You can't approve a bill, send it to the President for signature, then turn around and write another bill affectively passing on Congress' emurated power to "borrow money on the credit of the U.S." to the President that way. As donaldsutherland points out in the OP, the bill Congress approves over a presidential veto must be the same bill they sent him in the first place! The trickery McConnel proposes is as Newt Gingrich says - R-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S!

    Here's an article from MSN.com that better explains Sen. McConnell's proposal.
    ...that's great and all, but it has very little to do with what we were talking about. Never once did I address the constitutionality of the plan. We were talking about austerity in general.

    Still waiting for a response to post #26.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 07-13-11 at 01:59 AM.
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    Re: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

    Does anyone else have this feeling that everyone in D.C. knows something we don't know? Ie, this is all one big ****ing game to all of them?
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

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    Re: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    Does anyone else have this feeling that everyone in D.C. knows something we don't know? Ie, this is all one big ****ing game to all of them?
    Dark room.

    Single shaded light.

    Cigar smoke.

    "They'd never suspect a black guy!"

    BWAH HA HA HA HAAAA!
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    From CNBC:



    News Headlines

    Although the maneuver is creative, it would very likely be unconsitutional. Article I, Section 7 states:

    Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States; if he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a law. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law.

    Every order, resolution, or vote to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the same shall take effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in the case of a bill.


    The reality is that Congress must authorize an increase in the debt ceiling. A maneuver in which the President vetoes Congress's disapproval of raising the debt ceiling will not provide that authorization in place of Congress. That Congress would fail to override the veto would not constitute authorization where authorization had not been set forth in legislation.
    McConnell is a buffoon. Why doesn’t he just ask the President to deem the legislation passed like the House did with health care?

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

    I read it over again and thought about it: This is the Republicans way of letting Obama have his way, and show that they will not compromise with the president in anyways whatsoever. Basically, they can tell their voters its Obama's "fault" the debt ceiling is raised and they never technically broke their promises. Meanwhile, the nation goes on, debt ceiling raised no strings attached. Hey, could of had $3 cuts for every $1 revenue but, we'll take nothing instead. Sounds reasonable?
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

  6. #76
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    Re: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Bull

    *March 20, 2006: This was the last stand-alone debt limit vote on which then-Senator Obama voted. He
    was one of 48 members to vote against the increase, which passed with 52 votes. And that vote was dead along party lines .. the 48 members voting against raising the debt ceiling were all democrats

    n March 16, 006, then Illinois Senator Obama was opposed to hiking the ceiling, noting:*“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren.

    Reid said:
    “If my Republican friends believe that increasing our debt by almost $800 billion today and more than $3 trillion over the last five years is the right thing to do, they should be upfront about it. They should explain why they think more debt is good for the economy.
    Once again, the dems did not vote against it because they are ideologically opposed to increasing the debt. Their position is that sometimes debt is OK, and sometimes not OK. Therefore, being sometimes for debt and sometimes against it is not hypocritical. It is consistent with their beliefs

    The repubs, on the other hand, make a big show about how they oppose the debt and deficit spending.....except when they are in the majority. Suddenly deficit spending and debt is not a problem....It's a necessity!!!!

    It's OK If You're A Republican
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #77
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    Re: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    breaks out laughing ........ and what else could he say at this point in time about his vote against raising the debt ???? Either he was wrong then .. . or he is wrong now ..
    He could have done what the repubs always do and deny having made a mistake, and instead say "This time, it's necessary"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #78
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    Re: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    Does anyone else have this feeling that everyone in D.C. knows something we don't know? Ie, this is all one big ****ing game to all of them?
    Yep. The debt ceiling will be raised. Bet money on it

    Everything else is just a Kabuki play designed to convince the supporters of both parties that their representatives are fighting for them
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #79
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    Re: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    I read it over again and thought about it: This is the Republicans way of letting Obama have his way, and show that they will not compromise with the president in anyways whatsoever. Basically, they can tell their voters its Obama's "fault" the debt ceiling is raised and they never technically broke their promises. Meanwhile, the nation goes on, debt ceiling raised no strings attached. Hey, could of had $3 cuts for every $1 revenue but, we'll take nothing instead. Sounds reasonable?
    Exactly!! They don't really want to cut spending. The repubs depend on govt spending just as much as the dems do.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: McConnell Offers 'Backup' US Debt Limit Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    ...that's great and all, but it has very little to do with what we were talking about. Never once did I address the constitutionality of the plan. We were talking about austerity in general.

    Still waiting for a response to post #26.
    I see what you're saying, Jeezy, but it's not that simple. You see, per Art 1, Sect 9, clause 6 of the U.S. Constitution, it is Congress' responsibility to determine exactly what those "appropriations" are under the law. If they don't adhere to Art 1, Sect 8, clause 2, they place the Treasury's ability to pay for those appropriations in jeapordy effectively "passing the buck" - being derelect in their duties as members of Congress. While it is true that Treasury would have to pay bills anyway, its job becomes that much harder because without the ability to borrow money since revenues are thin (remember, Treasury isn't collecting enough income taxes to keep pace with spending obligations) it has to pick and choose which bills to pay.

    To that, you are correct. IF Treasure decides to pay only those debt obligations (appropriations) listed on page 13 of the report, it wouldn't be maximizing it's "bang for the buck" as much as it would be if it had chosen to pay for those debt obligations listed on page 16 as the total amounts are nearly identical. Just so everyone understands what Jeezy and I are talking about here:

    From page 13 of the report (all figures in billions):

    Defense Vendor Payments (page 13) = $31.7

    From page 16 of the report (all figures in billions):

    Food/Nutrition Services + TANF = $9.3
    HUD Programs = $6.7
    Veterans Affairs Programs = $2.9
    Special Education Grants = $3.6
    Tuition Assistance = $10.4
    Total = $32.9

    Diff between expenditures on page 16 from page 13 = $1.2 billion ($173.9 - 172.7)

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