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Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

Somehow I don't think wiki is wrong about the necessary and proper clause being in the constitution. Now it has been a while since I read the federalist papers, but the clause was part of the constitution that was ratified, so I think they were for it lol. The clause was put in place because the founders knew that they would not be able to determine every possible scenario that the government would face in the future, issues like global warming.

Please show me where the Founders said that the Necessary and Proper Clause was intended to cover items that "they would not be able to determine every possible scenario that the government would face in the future, issues like global warming." Had they said that during the ratifying conventions, we still might be living under the Articles of Confederation as people were seeking only a limited central government.

"Madison labored both in the Federalist and in the Virginia convention to assure everyone that the Necessary and Proper Clause was not a "sweeping clause" but one conferring merely incidental powers." - Negotiating the Constitution, The Earliest Debates Over Original Intent, by Joseph M. Lynch, p. 5

On behalf of the proponents of ratification, Wilson, without referring to the Mason-Gerry thesis, in effect dismissed it. The Necessary and Proper Clause, he said, meant "no more than that the powers…already particularly given [in Article I, Section 8] shall be effectually carried into execution." Later in the convention he maintained "that the powers [of the United States] are as minutely enumerated and defined as was possible, and...the general clause, against which so much exception is taken, is nothing more than what was necessary to render effectual the particular powers that are granted." - Negotiating the Constitution, The Earliest Debates Over Original Intent, by Joseph M. Lynch, p. 33

When their proposal was rejected, they took their case to the public, incorporating their amendments in a formal Dissent to ratification, which they published on December 18, 1788. It was in response to their "virulent invective and petulant declamation" against the Necessary and Proper Clause that Hamilton, writing as Publius in the Federalist, restated the construction Wilson had given it in the Pennsylvania convention" Congress thereby had only the power to pass laws to carry into effect the specifically enumerated powers given earlier in the section in which it appeared. The clause, Hamilton wrote, was "only declaratory of a truth, which would have resulted by the necessary and unavoidable implication from the very actt of constituting a Federal Government, and vesting it with certain specified powers." - Negotiating the Constitution, The Earliest Debates Over Original Intent, by Joseph M. Lynch, p. 33

Randolph's belated attack drew forth a second defense of the Necessary and Proper Clause from Publius, this time Madison, in the Federalist. He reaffirmed what Hamilton had written. By adding the clause, the framers had merely expressed that which in its absence would have been implied: Congress would have the power to adopt measures in execution of the enumerated powers. - Negotiating the Constitution, The Earliest Debates Over Original Intent, by Joseph M. Lynch, p. 34

In these four excerpts from one book, we learn that four (Madison, Hamilton, Wilson, & Randolph) of the more influential Founding Fathers disagree with your analysis. It was the anti-Federalists (those opposing ratification of the Constitution) who made the argument that the Necessary and Proper clause was all-encompassing. The people who wrote the Constitution refuted such a notion and stated that the only reason for the clause was that each of the powers enumerated previously in Article I, section 8 had to have the ability to be enacted and that was the reason for the clause. For example, they set up the three branches. The Necessary and Proper Clause allowed the Congress to have a building, chairs to sit in, paper to write on, and the other items needed to run the Congress. Same was true for the other branches. If the government was to have a currency, they had to have the ability to print the money. Etc., Etc., Etc.

The Necessary and Proper Clause was not there to take care of contingencies that had yet to be planned. Don't take my word for it. Read the source above. If you would like, I can offer much more on this.
 
To properly refute or agree i would have to read that book, which I haven't had the pleasure. I would be interested in seeing Lynch's sources but great research on your part. I would still argue that the constitution is a living document and that despite Hamiltons, Wilson, Randoplh, and Madison's views, the the document was drafted as such. Great point though, and I will have to keep an eye our for that book!
 
To regulate Commerce ... among the several States

AND

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers

See posting # 576 for refutation for the Necessary and Proper clause. As for the Commerce Clause, this would be a misreading of the clause as it was intended. The Founders were not interested in regulating the performance of any physical thing.

Pending a grant of power to congress over matters of commerce, the states acted individually. Any state which enjoyed superior conditions to a neighboring state was only too apt to take advantage of that fact. Some of the states, as James Madison described it, "having no convenient ports for foreign commerce, were subject to be taxed by their neighbors, through whose ports their commerce was carried on. New Jersey, placed between Philadelphia and New York, was likened to a cask tapped at both ends; and North Carolina, between Virginia and South Carolina, to a patient bleeding at both arms" The Americans were an agricultural and a trading people. Interference with the arteries of commerce was cutting off the very life-blood of the nation, and something had to be done. The articles of confederation provided no remedy, and it was evident that amendments to that document, if presented in the ordinary way, were not likely to succeed. - The Framing of the Constitution of the United States, by Max Farrand, p. 7

This was the true defect of the Articles of Confederation that the Founders corrected at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia. They had tried to correct these problems a year prior at the Annapolis Convention, but not enough attended to make a difference there. They wanted to correct the misuse of commerce by the States.

Next, the term commerce did not mean regulating the performance of anything for the public. Here is the definition of commerce that existed at that time:

Samuel Johnson's famous 1755 Dictionary defines it as "Intercourse, exchange of one thing for another, interchange of anything; trade; traf-fick." - Federalism, The Founder's Design, by Raoul Berger, p. 123

This is hardly the meaning that would lead to an intent of regulating the performance of anything for the public. As with the statement I made in the earlier posting about the Necessary and Proper Clause, we would not have had a Constitution if people would have thought the power to be virtually unlimited. That is not what the people wanted.
 
To properly refute or agree i would have to read that book, which I haven't had the pleasure. I would be interested in seeing Lynch's sources but great research on your part. I would still argue that the constitution is a living document and that despite Hamiltons, Wilson, Randoplh, and Madison's views, the the document was drafted as such. Great point though, and I will have to keep an eye our for that book!

Thanks for the compliment. It comes from a passion and years of reading. I bought the book online from either Barnes and Noble or Amazon. That book is only one of my sources. I recommend that everyone should read the following sources:

The Notes on the Constitutional Convention - they are online & the Avalon Project is a good source.
The Federalist Papers - These too are online
The Notes from the Ratification Debates - I own two volumes and the rest I found online.
Correspondence of the people who attended the Conventions - Many of these are online

Here is another & this entire work can be found online for your reading enjoyment:

Mr. GEORGE NICHOLAS: The gentleman has adverted to what he calls the sweeping clause, &c., and represents it as replete with great dangers. This dreaded clause runs in the following words: "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers Vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof." The committee will perceive that the Constitution had enumerated all the powers which the general government should have, but did not say how they were to be exercised. it therefore, in this clause, tells how they shall be exercised. Does this give any new power? I say not. Suppose it had been inserted, at the end of every power, that they should have power to make laws to carry that power into execution; would this have increased their powers? If, therefore, it could not have increased their powers, if placed at the end of each power, it cannot increase them at the end of all. This clause only enables them to carry into execution the powers given to them, but gives them no additional power. - The Debates in the Several State Conventions of the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, by James Madison, Jonathan Elliot, Elliot's Debates: Virginia Ratifying Convention: June 2, 1788 - Virginia Ratifying Debates of June 10, 1788.
 
See posting # 576 for refutation for the Necessary and Proper clause. As for the Commerce Clause, this would be a misreading of the clause as it was intended. The Founders were not interested in regulating the performance of any physical thing.

How is banning out of date lightbulbs more than an incidental extension of the power to regulate commerce? I can hardly think of a more minor application of that power...

Whenever anybody starts spamming founder quotes I just kind of tune out. You can find founder quotes that say pretty much anything. They were just as divided as politicians are today. There were some that wanted a very constrained government sort of like we had previously under the articles of confederation and there were some that wanted a much more powerful government than we have today. What matters isn't what the individual founders wanted the constitution to say, what matters is what it does say. That's what the states ratified- the constitution itself, not whatever random cherry picked set of founder statements you dig up.

Not that the founder's papers aren't interesting. They certainly are. Both sides of lot of the big debates we still have today were laid out and argued very intelligently by some of them. But they were most definitely not of a single mind about what the government should be like. Quite the opposite. That's what makes them so interesting to read.
 
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Well, I can think for myself. Where do you find the authority in the Constitution?

Of course, you are free to think that you are the arbiter of what is Constitutional and what is not. Knock yourself out! However for those that follow the rule of law, this is what the Constitution specifies:

"ARTICLE III

SECTION 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office."

Article III | U.S. Constitution | LII / Legal Information Institute
 
How is banning out of date lightbulbs more than an incidental extension of the power to regulate commerce? I can hardly think of a more minor application of that power...

Whenever anybody starts spamming founder quotes I just kind of tune out. You can find founder quotes that say pretty much anything. They were just as divided as politicians are today. There were some that wanted a very constrained government sort of like we had previously under the articles of confederation and there were some that wanted a much more powerful government than we have today. What matters isn't what the individual founders wanted the constitution to say, what matters is what it does say. That's what the states ratified- the constitution itself, not whatever random cherry picked set of founder statements you dig up.

Not that the founder's papers aren't interesting. They certainly are. Both sides of lot of the big debates we still have today were laid out and argued very intelligently by some of them. But they were most definitely not of a single mind about what the government should be like. Quite the opposite. That's what makes them so interesting to read.

I will leave your first paragraph for a bit later. I wish to take on your cynicism about the Founders. There were diverse opinions among the Founding Fathers, but they came to a compromised agreement over things. For example, slavery issue was addressed with a compromise. The manner in which the members of House and Senate were elected was a compromise. For example, if you and I were establishing a football league and you said that a touchdown should be worth 10 points and I say it should be 3, we later come to an agreement that it would be 6 and we would add another point if an extra point was kicked. If that were done, what is a touchdown worth. The answer is clearly 6. According to your rules of the game, if you score a touchdown, you want your team to be given 10 and mine 3. But the fact is that a touchdown would be 6.

As for spamming Founders quotes, I have no idea what you are talking about. My passion is American history from 1775 to approximately 1803. I have read many books (probably 100 or more) on the topic and with a focus on the Constitution. The Constitutional Convention is documented. Read it. The Federalist Papers are documented. Read them. The ratifying conventions are documented. Read them. The correspondence by the Founders are documented. Read them.

There was a thread here on religion in the Constitution section and the person quoted from the Founders. The problem with the quotes were that some could not be found from anything buy athiest sites and others were taken totally out of context. The quotes were parts of letters that Jefferson had written. The full letters were online and prove the falseness of the writer's claims. If you wish to take issue with the quotes I use, please feel free to do so. Many of them are from original sources. Others are from historians who have written on the subject.

As for what the states ratified, I suggest you read the notes on the Conventions. They are quite lengthy, but they provide what they people said and discussed. For example, Patrick Henry wanted to stop the ratification of the Constitution. He argued every which way as to why it was a bad document. One of his arguments was that the Necessary and Proper Clause, which he called the "sweeping clause" would give the central goverment unending authority. As I have shown here, Madison, Randolph, and Nicholas refuted Henry's claims in Virginia. Wilson made the same arguments as Madison in Pennsylvania. Hamilton did the same in New York.

History is history, my friend. You can dismiss history if you wish. Look at this through your own prism. You say that global warming is happening and that it is man-made. Others say that there is no proof that it is mand-made. Should we look at this as you look at history? Oh, people differ, let's ignore the subject. You know, as well as I do, that facts are facts. If global warming exists, it exists. If it is man-made, it is man-made. History exists. If Madison, Wilson, Nicholas, Randolph, and Hamilton believed that the Necessary and Proper Clause added no new power to the central government than to simply implement the power previously enumerated, then that is what they said. Those arguments are what drove the ratifying conventions to ratify the Constitution. If Madison or any of them would have agreed with Patrick Henry, the Constitution would not exist. It would not have been ratified.
 
Of course, you are free to think that you are the arbiter of what is Constitutional and what is not. Knock yourself out! However for those that follow the rule of law, this is what the Constitution specifies:

"ARTICLE III

SECTION 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office."

Article III | U.S. Constitution | LII / Legal Information Institute

I'll address this issue later today. I need to get to bed. I am not an arbiter. I am a full-time student of the Constitution. This clause does not explicitly provide for a power to overturn legislation of the Congress or the States or to interpret what the Constitution means. I'll cover this later. Nite.
 
I'll address this issue later today. I need to get to bed. I am not an arbiter. I am a full-time student of the Constitution.
Well then, your opinion would certain trump the Supreme Court's decisions.


This clause does not explicitly provide for a power to overturn legislation of the Congress or the States or to interpret what the Constitution means. I'll cover this later. Nite.

It gives judicial power to the one Supreme Court. Congress of course creates legislation, but if the Constitutionality is challenged, the court decides. Sorry, but I can find no reference in the Constitution to where the SC can even be overruled by "full-time students of the Constitution."
 
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If the new technology is actually better people will use it. How many here still light their houses with a candle or an oil lamp? The government didn't have to make either one illegal.

Nor did government have to ban slide rules, or cathode-ray-tube based televisions, or horse-drawn vehicles or phonograph records or chemical-based photography.

When a new technology is developed to the point that it is ready to replace an older technology, the older technology will fade into obsolescence on its own as consumers willingly buy the newer technology in preference to the older.

A “superior” technology that can only prevail by having government impose bans or restrictions on the older technology that it means to replace is not “superior” after all, and government is doing a great disservice to those it is supposed to serve, by forcing them to use what is truly an inferior technology to that which they would use if given their own free choice.
 
I thought statists were like conservatives, against change…

By definition, statists are in favor of greater government control, and less individual freedom. All that it has to do with change is that statists will tend to be in favor of change that makes government more powerful, and opposed to change that gives individuals more freedom.
 
Lets just cut to the chase. Nobody actually cares that they get to use the old janky lightbulbs. This whole thing is just an excuse for Republicans to go around ranting about how they don't believe in global warming/science.

I do. I'm remodeling the bathroom. Old bulb quits. I grab one of the twisty ones the wife has bought. The light it emits sucks. Out it comes, and I get into the ones I had bought and put away.

Much better.
 
Another insight by Gill based on absolutely nothing.



This makes sense for you. You don't know about it, therefore it doesn't exist. Got it!

Ahhh, ignorance is bliss isn't it.....

In 2020, all light bulbs will be required to produce 45 lumens per watt. Halogen bulbs don't meet that requirement, therefore they will no longer be allowed.

Maybe you should learn a little more on the subject before spouting off about things you know nothing about.
 
Ahhh, ignorance is bliss isn't it.....

In 2020, all light bulbs will be required to produce 45 lumens per watt. Halogen bulbs don't meet that requirement, therefore they will no longer be allowed.

Maybe you should learn a little more on the subject before spouting off about things you know nothing about.

Oh bull****. :lol:

You really need to stop making stuff up out of thin air.
 
Nor did government have to ban slide rules, or cathode-ray-tube based televisions, or horse-drawn vehicles or phonograph records or chemical-based photography.

When a new technology is developed to the point that it is ready to replace an older technology, the older technology will fade into obsolescence on its own as consumers willingly buy the newer technology in preference to the older.

Well the government DID have to ban leaded gasoline, mandate catalytic converters, stop the sale of most asbestos prducts, PCBs, etc. All of these changes were for the public good and they required the introduction of new products.
 
I do. I'm remodeling the bathroom. Old bulb quits. I grab one of the twisty ones the wife has bought. The light it emits sucks. Out it comes, and I get into the ones I had bought and put away.

Much better.
a secret stash of.....light bulbs?:shock:
what else you got hidden?
 
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The passive solar house I built in 1984 that has used 60% less energy than average for each year since, I use no air-conditioning, I walk to work, and for occasional long distance travel I have used a car that gets at least 50 mpg since 2001, I organically grow most of my own food, and I use high efficiency stove, refrigeratory, hot water heater, dryer, and lightbulbs.

Soon I will have my new solar panels hooked up which will produce 1.5 kw of power and they will pay for themselves in 7 years.

How does that compare with how energy efficient you are???
BTW, know of any good forums related to low energy living? Conserving/efficiencies, etc.?
I have been buying and giving away thrift store copies of Edward Mazria's book on Passive Solar. One copy went to an architect, another to a designer, and another to a remodeling contractor. I'd like to say that they have become believers, but I can't....
The Better Buildings Initiative and Architecture 2030 should help us make some progress, tho. It took an act of congress to mandate cleaner burning cars, which led to better performance, more power, better mileage, etc. Sometimes industry has to be told what to do by govt, sometimes the public has to be told....
 
Oh bull****. :lol:

You really need to stop making stuff up out of thin air.

Great... another ignorant post from someone pretending to know what they are talking about.

By 2020, a second tier of restrictions would become effective, which requires all general-purpose bulbs to produce at least 45 lumens per watt (similar to current CFLs). Exemptions from the Act include reflector flood, 3-way, candelabra, colored, and other specialty bulbs.
Phase-out of incandescent light bulbs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now... who was it that you claimed was making stuff up ???
 
How is banning out of date lightbulbs more than an incidental extension of the power to regulate commerce? I can hardly think of a more minor application of that power....

What is not incidental to commerce?

Can Congress set the prices for all goods and services? Using your words, aren't prices incidental to commerce?
Can Congress mandate the size, shape, or any other characteristic of any product (i.e. efficiency) made or sold in the U.S.? Isn't this incidental to commerce?
Can Congress tell farmers what they must grow or not grow, how much to plant, and what price to sell it for? Isn't this incidental to commerce?
Can Congress mandate what size home a family may build based on size of family? Isn't this incidental to commerce?

Definition: Tyranny - oppressive power exerted by government

Are you advocating tyranny as an incidental to commerce?

The Founding Fathers did not intend for a tyrannical government to exist. They believed in self-government.
 
Of course, you are free to think that you are the arbiter of what is Constitutional and what is not. Knock yourself out! However for those that follow the rule of law, this is what the Constitution specifies:

"ARTICLE III

SECTION 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office."

Article III | U.S. Constitution | LII / Legal Information Institute

Please allow me to revisit the concept that I am the arbiter of the Constitution. First, I have never said that I was. Second, why would you make such a claim? Third, is it not beneficial for Americans to know what is in the Constitution and understand what it means? Fourth, are Americans just supposed to say that the Courts know what they are doing and we are not to know anything about the Constitution or law and should not have any thoughts about what is right and wrong on a constitutional basis? Fifth, has history ever shown that blindly following a government could lead to tyrannical rule and enslavement of people? Sixth, if the Courts tomorrow said that slavery was once again the law of the land or that you could no longer say anything negative about the President or Congress, would you not argue against these decisions?

As I stated earlier, this clause does not say that the Federal Courts can say that legislation of the States or of Congress is unconstitutional. Sorry, but I must leave in a few minutes and I will address judicial review this afternoon when I return.
 
Ahhh, ignorance is bliss isn't it.....

Personally, I prefer being informed rather than bliss from ignorance.

In 2020, all light bulbs will be required to produce 45 lumens per watt. Halogen bulbs don't meet that requirement, therefore they will no longer be allowed.

Maybe you should learn a little more on the subject before spouting off about things you know nothing about.

First some background on the new efficiency standards that were begun under the Reagan Administration:

"There is no looming ban or phase out of incandescent bulbs. The entire hullabaloo is based on a fictitious claim manufactured by Barton.

All major lighting manufacturers, including Philips, Sylvania and GE, currently produce and sell incandescent light bulbs that meet or exceed the new standards (with no compromise in functionality). In fact, the lighting industry helped craft the 2007 legislation with the full understanding that they could produce incandescent bulbs that meet them."

"Legislation establishing common-sense efficiency standards for energy-using equipment has traditionally enjoyed overwhelming support from conservatives. The first such legislation was signed into law 25 years ago by President Ronald Reagan. Thanks to the legislation enacted by Reagan and similar laws signed by his successors, Americans are saving billions of dollars on their utility bills."
There is No Light Bulb “Ban” | FrumForum


"One common misconception about this legislation is that it outlaws incandescent bulbs. In fact it
sets specification performance thresholds for general service incandescent lamps, a distinction
that excludes many incandescent lighting products such as traffic signal bulbs, reflector bulbs, 3-
way bulbs, and numerous others. It does set the following efficiency standards for lamps that
meet the “general service incandescent” definition, which applies only to lamps that range from
310 Watts to 2600 Watts."

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:wlxnoqT7v_wJ:www.stanford.edu/group/peec/cgi-bin/docs/modeling/research/Probabilistic%2520Cost%2520of%2520Light%2520Models%2520for%2520Solid%2520State%2520Lighting%2520in%2520General%2520Illumination%2520Markets.pdf+incandescent+bulbs+that+meet+a+minimum+efficacy+standard+of+45+lumens+per+watt.&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh4pgO337Eb-3bISEPAm49IPnrb4RxqlY1VEbsfhQrCyjxIdOy4aeP_wQZ1n9dvsMaqAZv5YpcOlEkkifGIjYZfrZiKODrSpAMNWvotsOJONtKl6tYeDygeC6sD2pmjY-TrI2KG&sig=AHIEtbRSLSHZJb1dAarLJKT4QvrgTVK9Ww
 
Personally, I prefer being informed rather than bliss from ignorance.



First some background on the new efficiency standards that were begun under the Reagan Administration:

"There is no looming ban or phase out of incandescent bulbs. The entire hullabaloo is based on a fictitious claim manufactured by Barton.

All major lighting manufacturers, including Philips, Sylvania and GE, currently produce and sell incandescent light bulbs that meet or exceed the new standards (with no compromise in functionality). In fact, the lighting industry helped craft the 2007 legislation with the full understanding that they could produce incandescent bulbs that meet them."

"Legislation establishing common-sense efficiency standards for energy-using equipment has traditionally enjoyed overwhelming support from conservatives. The first such legislation was signed into law 25 years ago by President Ronald Reagan. Thanks to the legislation enacted by Reagan and similar laws signed by his successors, Americans are saving billions of dollars on their utility bills."
There is No Light Bulb “Ban” | FrumForum


"One common misconception about this legislation is that it outlaws incandescent bulbs. In fact it
sets specification performance thresholds for general service incandescent lamps, a distinction
that excludes many incandescent lighting products such as traffic signal bulbs, reflector bulbs, 3-
way bulbs, and numerous others. It does set the following efficiency standards for lamps that
meet the “general service incandescent” definition, which applies only to lamps that range from
310 Watts to 2600 Watts."

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:wlxnoqT7v_wJ:www.stanford.edu/group/peec/cgi-bin/docs/modeling/research/Probabilistic%2520Cost%2520of%2520Light%2520Models%2520for%2520Solid%2520State%2520Lighting%2520in%2520General%2520Illumination%2520Markets.pdf+incandescent+bulbs+that+meet+a+minimum+efficacy+standard+of+45+lumens+per+watt.&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh4pgO337Eb-3bISEPAm49IPnrb4RxqlY1VEbsfhQrCyjxIdOy4aeP_wQZ1n9dvsMaqAZv5YpcOlEkkifGIjYZfrZiKODrSpAMNWvotsOJONtKl6tYeDygeC6sD2pmjY-TrI2KG&sig=AHIEtbRSLSHZJb1dAarLJKT4QvrgTVK9Ww

Thanks. You confirmed what I had already posted.
 
BTW, know of any good forums related to low energy living? Conserving/efficiencies, etc.?
I have been buying and giving away thrift store copies of Edward Mazria's book on Passive Solar. One copy went to an architect, another to a designer, and another to a remodeling contractor. I'd like to say that they have become believers, but I can't....
The Better Buildings Initiative and Architecture 2030 should help us make some progress, tho. It took an act of congress to mandate cleaner burning cars, which led to better performance, more power, better mileage, etc. Sometimes industry has to be told what to do by govt, sometimes the public has to be told....

Right you are Bill, people and companies do not always act in ways that are responsible to the greater community at large. That is why we elected to have government. I am not subscribed to any forums specifically for conservation, I have several, probably outdated, books on the subject, but mostly I depend on my son to keep me updated these days. He got me hooked up with a great deal on solar panels. At your suggestion previously I have read some about The Better Buildings Initiative and Architecture 2030. I agree with you about its importance and the congressional support it will take to get it adopted.

I really don't get the opposition to greater energy efficiency, which is directly tied our cost of everything.
 
Please allow me to revisit the concept that I am the arbiter of the Constitution. First, I have never said that I was. Second, why would you make such a claim? Third, is it not beneficial for Americans to know what is in the Constitution and understand what it means? Fourth, are Americans just supposed to say that the Courts know what they are doing and we are not to know anything about the Constitution or law and should not have any thoughts about what is right and wrong on a constitutional basis? Fifth, has history ever shown that blindly following a government could lead to tyrannical rule and enslavement of people? Sixth, if the Courts tomorrow said that slavery was once again the law of the land or that you could no longer say anything negative about the President or Congress, would you not argue against these decisions?

As I stated earlier, this clause does not say that the Federal Courts can say that legislation of the States or of Congress is unconstitutional. Sorry, but I must leave in a few minutes and I will address judicial review this afternoon when I return.

There are things I don't agree with the SC about now, such as their Citizens United decision. However, it is the rule of law and will have to be defeated through public pressure for a court challenge.

Under US rule of law, that is the way you address decisions made by the court. Some are now challenging the new health care legislation through the Supreme Court, are they not?

Now, if the SC rules against the legislation, will their ruling be overruled by any one else?

I rest my case.
 
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