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Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

Why do debates on the environment always devolve into a capitalism vs socialism debate? Anyone know the game Tragedy of the Commons? This is the real issue at hand.

No it isn't. The tragedy of the commons requires that no one communicates. All over the world people come to agreements about how to handle common resources. The only places where bad things happen are places where governments get involved.

Everything else you wrote was just an excuse for centralized governments controlling everything. I suppose that is comfortable for many. After all tyranny of the few over the many is the general history of mankind.

Oh, and you do realize you are not going to be a member of the politburo...right?
 
I'm right with you on the right to buy what I want but global warming isn't a hoax and sometimes we have to make sacrifices to live in civilization together. Society is imperfect but better than the alternative.
 
Because we all share the same pool of energy and the same environment. If you use up more energy that impacts all of us. If you harm the environment, that impacts all of us...

It amazes me there are still a some around that can't grasp that basic fact.
 
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What is best for you, sure. Something that just affects you, absolutely that should be your decision and your decision alone. But this is something that affects everybody. When something affects other people, then we need to resolve it together.

Okay. Since everything we all do is intermingled with everybody else then we have to have a central government to hire people to make decisions for us? Is that your argument?

You're just being silly now. Comparing phasing out inefficient lightbulbs strikes you as the USSR? Come on man. Get real.
The environmental movement gives statists (yes, liberals, socialists, communists, Marxists...) their best chance at domination. They already have you. See? That was easy.
 
You can breath in poisons you know. Misterveritis if this is all a hoax, please provide some evidence that is from reputable climate scientists, not propagandists.
 
If the new technology is actually better people will use it. How many here still light their houses with a candle or an oil lamp? The government didn't have to make either one illegal.
 
You can breath in poisons you know. Misterveritis if this is all a hoax, please provide some evidence that is from reputable climate scientists, not propagandists.

Life expectancy is far longer today than before lightbulbs were invented. Is it as simple as that? No, it isn't but lightbulbs are not some grand killer.
 
And you can mark that day as the day you lost a choice. Maybe not a choice you would have made, but one that you can no longer make.

I lost the choice to pay more for light bulbs that pollute our environment........ I'm devastated!!!!
 
The market? How would the market take environmental damage into account? That's an externality.
How do you decide anything for yourself? Everything is an externality (to use your word). The market is nothing more than you deciding for you and me deciding for me. If you, for real of goofy reasons, decide that buying a one dollar light bulb will lead to the destruction of the ecosystem, then you are free to seek out the ten dollar light bulb with mercury in it that, in your world view will do no harm. You will choose. And if many of you choose then the market will allocate resources toward products that you will actually buy.

No other mechanism is as effective, efficient nor provides as much good for so many people ans a free market made up of people acting in their self interest.
 
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Like I keep saying, you're free not to believe in science if you don't want to. But you don't make the decisions on behalf of everybody.
And you are free to continue to believe in man caused global warming but are not free to enslave me because of your silly beliefs.

So we are right back to free markets where you buy a coal-powered car and I buy one that runs on gasoline. All along we both benefit. You get to feel superior to me because you are saving the Earth (how romantic) and I get an effective form of transportation.
 
Indirect relationship. The plant is the center of your concern but you are punishing the user that is most likely has no choices for services because of government involvement in the market.

Our pollution is a direct factor of our wasteful energy use. So you think you have the "right" to be as wasteful as you choose with our natural resources regardless of the effects of that use on others, is that right?
 
That's fine. You don't have to. But you share that environment with people that do care about it. You don't get to impose your will on other people just because you don't care about the environment or understand the implications of damaging it.
I am not sharing anything. Liberals do that.

Nor am I damaging the environment when I consume energy. Liberals do that too. There is no damage and there are no implications. If you believe otherwise you are free to make choices for you that are in line with your beliefs. I am fine with that.

What you don't get to do, at least not without a fight, is to control me and enslave me.
 
None. Screwing up light bulbs is a job for General Electric and the Congress.

I just bought six replacement bulbs for the six I bought five months ago. Those bulbs are guaranteed to last two years, as long as you don't actually turn them on.So including today's purchase I have spent one hundred dollars plus to buy twelve, not very good light bulbs --for one year's worth of light. I hate Congress.
what kind of bulbs costs $8 each and where are you buying them?
 
I'm right with you on the right to buy what I want but global warming isn't a hoax and sometimes we have to make sacrifices to live in civilization together. Society is imperfect but better than the alternative.
It warms. It cools. The part that is the hoax is where we are responsible for it. You know it might just be the sun...
 
Do you really abhor the right to decide for yourself what is best for you? Do you really want busybody bureaucrats making choices for you?

Is your religion so dear that you willingly throw away your birthright to support it? When the Soviet Union collapsed (thank you Mr. Reagan) the Environmental movement became the new home of the reds.
you know, they say there is a commie behind every tree, and shrub, and Bush.....
 
You can breath in poisons you know. Misterveritis if this is all a hoax, please provide some evidence that is from reputable climate scientists, not propagandists.
Don't confuse pollution with man-caused global warming. We have created a very clean environment. Rich nations do that. One has nothing to do with the other.

And no, I am not going to post any links to places that most of you would dismiss anyway. We have played that game to no effect many times over the years. You are free to believe that you are destroying the Earth. Me? I just laugh at the very idea.
 
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I believe in science just fine. Where exactly do you think I'm getting my doubt from? I know the workings of Co2 and I know how much is going up and from I understand it simply not workable to be a large factor. This mindset of you people is not helpful to your cause. "You just don't believe in science if you don't agree" Sorry, but get a real argument.

And democracy is not about equal say. Democracy is about majority rules regardless of what the minority says.
we are not a democracy, we are a republic, and the courts protect the rights of the minority..
 
Like I keep saying, you're free not to believe in science if you don't want to. But you don't make the decisions on behalf of everybody.
not in a democracy, or a republic, but if he was a dictater, perhaps...
 
Okay. Since everything we all do is intermingled with everybody else then we have to have a central government to hire people to make decisions for us? Is that your argument?


The environmental movement gives statists (yes, liberals, socialists, communists, Marxists...) their best chance at domination. They already have you. See? That was easy.
I thought statists were like conservatives, against change, and that conservatives don't like progressives, which you didn'tinclude in your little list...
 
So you think you have the "right" to be as wasteful as you choose with our natural resources regardless of the effects of that use on others, is that right?

Yes. At last you have it. When we are free we all can do what we believe is in our best interest. I can try to use as much energy as Algore. I can use what I can pay for. And you get to make decisions that reflect what is important to you.

Isn't it wonderful to realize that you can be free without the need to enslave me and others?
 
It warms. It cools. The part that is the hoax is where we are responsible for it. You know it might just be the sun...

You know they measure the sun's output right? It has been at a solar minimum for most of the warming period. So that rules that out. What else you got?
 
Don't confuse pollution with man-caused global warming. We have created a very clean environment. Rich nations do that. One has nothing to do with the other.

And no, I am not going to post any links to places that most of you would dismiss anyway. We have played that game to no effect many times over the years. You are free to believe thatyf you are destroying the Earth. Me? I just laugh at the very idea.

And we laugh at you, so it all balances out nicely!
 
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