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Thread: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    a bloggers view on the issue won't carry as much weight as a study done by a group of scientists, usually, but then you have to look at the scientists hired by the tobacco companies to convince us that smoking doens't cause cancer..heart disease, or even bad breath....
    Good point. Scientists can be bought - even National and International ones that are part of groups and with lots of letters after their names.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    nope, incandescent floods are not that cheap....and the damn things are HOT....outside the heat isn't an issue, but indoors?
    Sorry, I misread. I got the curlies confused with you then noting you had floods.

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You are co-mingling two different problems, the unregulated pollution that occurs without government intervention and corporate influence of politicians. Both need to be addressed.
    The people demanded the changes, not the corrupt politicians.

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Any... for example GW scientists.

    National or international standing only huh? And all those without national or international standing aren't included right.... or is it they're included only if they agree with the national or international standing groups....
    "97% of climate experts agree humans are causing global warming."

    If you had a heart problem, would you go with the 97% of experts that said you needed an operation, or the 3% who said it was no problem, you'll be just fine?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    The people demanded the changes, not the corrupt politicians.
    And did the companies stop polluting before the regulatory requirement to do so?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "97% of climate experts agree humans are causing global warming."

    If you had a heart problem, would you go with the 97% of experts that said you needed an operation, or the 3% who said it was no problem, you'll be just fine?
    I no longer have any desire to discuss AGW as there being any chance whatsoever of the U.S. signing on to carbon credits or any other scheme is non existant but I will note. Nice unbiased site.

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And did the companies stop polluting before the regulatory requirement to do so?
    No, only after the people demanded it.

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I no longer have any desire to discuss AGW as there being any chance whatsoever of the U.S. signing on to carbon credits or any other scheme is non existant but I will note. Nice unbiased site.
    I'm glad you noted the studies by (Oreskes 2004), and (Doran 2009) as references to back up the consensus of experts I quoted.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    How do you decide anything for yourself? Everything is an externality (to use your word). The market is nothing more than you deciding for you and me deciding for me. If you, for real of goofy reasons, decide that buying a one dollar light bulb will lead to the destruction of the ecosystem, then you are free to seek out the ten dollar light bulb with mercury in it that, in your world view will do no harm. You will choose. And if many of you choose then the market will allocate resources toward products that you will actually buy.

    No other mechanism is as effective, efficient nor provides as much good for so many people ans a free market made up of people acting in their self interest.
    Ok, lets just go over the basics. What an externality is is a cost or benefit from something a company or person does that they don't pay or get. There are negative externalities and positive externalities. A negative externality is a cost that a company foists on others, a positive externality is a benefit that the company gives others that it can't charge for. In short, externalities are the things that the market doesn't take account of.

    An example of a negative externality would be a corporation that is manufacturing widgets. It has two options for how to make the widget. One process costs $10, but involves dumping waste in the lake. That waste causes $10 worth of damage to fishermen, property values around the lake and water treatment plant costs. So really it is costing $20 for every widget they make, even though the company only pays $10. The other option is a process where they could make it for $15, but not dump waste in the lake. Left to it's own devices, the company will just do the $10 process, but that is actually the less efficient way to make the widgets. So, government has to step in. It can either forbid dumping waste in the lake or it can make the company pay $10 per widget to pay for cleaning it up, which has the same effect.

    A positive externality is, for example, a shipping company decides they need a lighthouse on a particular rock. That benefits all the other shipping companies too, but there is no way to make them chip in, so the company that builds the lighthouse is unable to recoup the whole benefit of their work.

    Every economist alive, going all the way back to Adam Smith himself, has agreed that government needs to regulate externalities. Otherwise it is just inefficient. The market doesn't account for them in any way, so the market just acts like they don't exist.

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Less waste by consumer = less pollution of the environment that we all depend on. Seems like a direct responsibility to me.
    Of course, environmentalists do not live by this creed. Stop it!!

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