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Thread: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You're still drawing the "do thing/don't do thing" false dichotomy. Bringing your argument back to light bulbs, nobody has ever suggested you not be able to light your home at all. Nor has anyone suggested that electricity be relegated only to tasks that have some "pressing need."

    Maybe you're just upset that your argument wasn't as debate-ending as you thought it was.
    LOL. If you were concerned about the added pollution you would do what you could to curtail it.

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I don't see how the government is limiting your choice, you're still completely free to choose whatever lightbulbs you want.
    Correction......your completely free to choose from the lightbulbs that the Nanny state approves of........

    We have a government......that uses its monopoly of brute force........to control everything from the lightbulbs you can buy to the water level in your toilet........while you may see no wrong in it..... rest assured it has nothing whatsoever to do with FREEDOM.
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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    But you are assuming that it is government that control the environment and without it people will behave irresponsibly even while the facts, including your examples, prove otherwise. Why wouldn't individuals make the choice for cleaner air and water? There are a great many ways to exert others to respect the environment, including the media, environmental groups, public protests, etc. The assumption that governments will always act in the public interest without these public pressure groups, also as per your examples, is unlikely.

    I believe that public shaming also works, if people are allowed a free media and public protests. I have become very suspicious of government control because, once we give it to them, it is very difficult to get it back. The EPA will now never disappear no matter how clean the air and water might be. And of course its budget will always grow and the bureaucracy, laws and codes increase. Otherwise the government, according to the self interested, is 'not respecting the environment'.
    We tried your system of simply educating citizenry about protecting the environment. Prior to the early 1970s that was the system we operated under in the United States. The results:

    Rivers that were so polluted they caught fire.
    Lakes in the Adirondacks that were so poisoned from acid rain that they were the pH of table vinegar.
    Many states where the majority of lakes and rivers had fish consumption advisories.
    The air quality in almost every major city in America was worse then than today.

    I am huge Civil Libertarian. I believe that your rights extend so far as to not impede the rights of another individual. However, where libertarian ideology is totally inadequate is with environmental protection. If there is any place we need government, other than providing a court system and protecting the borders, its with environmental protection. You should read "The Tragedy of the Commons". Tragedy of the commons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Rivers that were so polluted they caught fire.
    With the same people deciding to clean things up. The lakefront and rivers around Cleveland wasn't cleaned up because the federal government forced it. It was because the people wanted it.

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Correction......your completely free to choose from the lightbulbs that the Nanny state approves of........
    That's not a limitation on your choice of lightbulbs to buy, that's a limitation on producers that produce lightbulbs. You still have free choice on what products you can buy.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    With the same people deciding to clean things up. The lakefront and rivers around Cleveland wasn't cleaned up because the federal government forced it. It was because the people wanted it.
    Environmental Policy does not result from some decree by Caesar, it results from citizens petitioning their government to regulate polluters. When the Cuyahoga River caught fire several times in the late 60s, what cleaned it up was not a community trash pick up, it was the citizens of Ohio and other states where industries were poisoning their air and water, petitioning and lobbying the government to regulate polluting industries. In fact, the Cuyahoga River Fires were the poster child for building the public support for the creation of the EPA and the passage of the Clean Water Act.

    Totalitarian nations usually have horrible environmental records because its not the governments that force environmental regulations on the people, its the people that force governments to enact environmental regulations and protections.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    That's not a limitation on your choice of lightbulbs to buy, that's a limitation on producers that produce lightbulbs. You still have free choice on what products you can buy.
    Which is akin to saying "You can keep your health care if you like it"......unless the Liberal Nanny doesnt approve of it.

    Akin to every Public Option.......where there is but one option.......
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    .......Your FREEDOM to CHOOSE.......disappears a bit more with every piece of Democrat legislation.........
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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Dirty is usually cheaper. It's cheaper to dump mercury in your neighbor's back yard than it is to dispose of it properly. The free market has never been good at reducing large-scale pollution. The dirty company operates cheaper, outcompetes the clean company, and takes over the industry.
    If you can show some common examples where this has actually happened, it might support your argument.

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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    [QUOTE=Grant;1059650299]

    If you can show some common examples where this has actually happened, it might support your argument.
    China Mexico India
    perhaps you recall Bhopal or the massive air pollution in Mexico city
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    Re: Energy Secretary Steven Chu defends light bulb standards as GOP seeks repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Environmental Policy does not result from some decree by Caesar, it results from citizens petitioning their government to regulate polluters. When the Cuyahoga River caught fire several times in the late 60s, what cleaned it up was not a community trash pick up, it was the citizens of Ohio and other states where industries were poisoning their air and water, petitioning and lobbying the government to regulate polluting industries. In fact, the Cuyahoga River Fires were the poster child for building the public support for the creation of the EPA and the passage of the Clean Water Act.

    Totalitarian nations usually have horrible environmental records because its not the governments that force environmental regulations on the people, its the people that force governments to enact environmental regulations and protections.
    That's right. It was the citizens of the States involved which engineered the clean-up, which is as it should be. First by neighborhoods, then by counties and then by States. The best government is local government. and if your county chooses to ban light bulbs, for example, after serious debate, then they can do so.

    When the Federal government takes the power away from the people of the entire country, and pits one against the other, just as they are doing now with economic threats, then the system begins to collapse. If each State was stronger the United States would be stronger.

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