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Mexican national executed in Texas

ludahai said:
Did Texas inform him he had the right? That is part of the treaty.

Sign AND ratify... The Senate plays a role as well...

And Texas breached Article VI of the Constitution...
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Great idea !!! Let's require all law enforcement to read prisoners their Miranda rights, the Bill of Rights, and each and every treaty we've ever signed.

That'll speed up the justice system........:roll:
 
Camlon said:
They didn't know he was a Mexican and he has lived here since he was 2 years old.
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.... sorry... what else is he supposed to be?
 
ludahai said:
And normally I would actually be sympathetic with such an argument, except that treaty commitments trump state law in this case...
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Evidently not. The Supreme Court didn't seem to think so.
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
We signed and ratified a treaty. The Constitution says that is the law of the land. It's not a loss of sovereignty as many would claim, because our government chose to ratify it. He was denied due process as he would need his foreign consulate. If you were in another country and denied your country's legal support, would you consider that a fair trial?
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Oops, wrong link, apparently.
 
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ludahai said:
Yes, he deserved to die by all accounts, but Texas should have done it the correct way.
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Assuming it's true that Texas did not know he was a foreign national until well after his case was tried and appealed, how do you think they should have gone about it?
 
justabubba said:
but the salent point is there is an affirmative obligation by the state to notify the arrested individual of their rights
it appears tejas failed to do so, resulting in a flawed judicial process
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Ok, just read the Supreme Court opinion on it's denial to stay the execution.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/11-5001.pdf

It briefly mentions the consulate issue, but says that that error was found to be harmless. That means, it made no difference to the outcome of the case.
 
X Factor said:
Ok, just read the Supreme Court opinion on it's denial to stay the execution.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/11-5001.pdf

It briefly mentions the consulate issue, but says that that error was found to be harmless. That means, it made no difference to the outcome of the case.
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here is my post from another thread on this execution without due process issue:
note that Judge Stevens, recognizing that the law does not compel recognition of this treaty (because its implementation had not been properly effected by regulation), finds that ability to ignore the treaty undermines the interests of our nation
On the other hand, the costs of refusing to respect theICJ’s judgment are significant. The entire Court and the President agree that breach will jeopardize the United States’ “plainly compelling” interests in “ensuring thereciprocal observance of the Vienna Convention, protecting relations with foreign governments, and demonstrating commitment to the role of international law.” Ante, at
28. When the honor of the Nation is balanced against the modest cost of compliance, Texas would do well to recognize that more is at stake than whether judgments of the ICJ, and the principled admonitions of the President of the United States, trump state procedural rules in the absence of implementing legislation.
The Court’s judgment, which I join, does not foreclose further appropriate action by the State of Texas.
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they had the right to prosecute but was it right to prosecute. the affirming Judge thinks no
Stevens refused to be an activist Judge, but he recognized the wrong in proceeding in violation of the treaty

(page 49) http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/06-984.pdf
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justabubba said:
but the salent point is there is an affirmative obligation by the state to notify the arrested individual of their rights
it appears tejas failed to do so, resulting in a flawed judicial process
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Yes, we have an obligation under our treaty committment to notify the consulate, but foreign nationals do not have a judicially enforceable right to consular access.
 
justabubba said:
here is my post from another thread on this execution without due process issue:
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It an overstatement to say that this person was executed without due process. Why do I get the feeling no amount of due process would be enough for you. Isn't all this really just a case of opposing the death penalty?
 
Taylor said:
Assuming it's true that Texas did not know he was a foreign national until well after his case was tried and appealed, how do you think they should have gone about it?
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They should have asked him for proof of citizenship......... oops, can't do that either.
 
Gill said:
They should have asked him for proof of citizenship......... oops, can't do that either.
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you want us to believe that tejas did not know that he was a mexican national at any time
absurd
 
X Factor said:
It an overstatement to say that this person was executed without due process. Why do I get the feeling no amount of due process would be enough for you. Isn't all this really just a case of opposing the death penalty?
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no
that fellow likely deserved his just punishment
but he received unjust punishment because he was denied due process
but this concern expressed by us is in no way in defense of the perp
it is in defense of due process
that we have established precedent which might cause Americans arrested in foreign lands who need American counselor access to be denied it
 
Wiggen said:
And the next time an American citizen arrested in a foreign country asks for access to the U.S. Consul, we shouldn't be too surprised if the answer they get back is ' why should we allow you this? Your country doesn't."

The issue isn't whether or not this piece of crap deserved to be executed. Of course he did.

The issue is what affect this has on the generally accepted principle that people arrested in a foreign country have the right to talk to a representative of their own country. Christ even Iran allows that.

But this is a big picture thing that is obviously far beyond the grasp of the Neanderthal Perry and his knee jerk supporters.
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Americans never could expect good treatment in Mexico. You forget about the Federales, the most corrupt military police force in Mexico, the whole world. They have been brutalizing Americans who find their way down in Mexico for years, and when they don't have Americans to roust, they are busy beating up their own citizens. Where have you been? Also Mexico doesn't provide English translations on the products they sell in their stores, nor do they cater to non-Spanish speakers. Why don't you know this?
 
Wiggen said:
And the next time an American citizen arrested in a foreign country asks for access to the U.S. Consul, we shouldn't be too surprised if the answer they get back is ' why should we allow you this? Your country doesn't."
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You do know that Mexico has been denying Americans (and anyone else) legal counsel for decades?
 
justabubba said:
you want us to believe that tejas did not know that he was a mexican national at any time
absurd
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How would they have known ??? Thanks to the ACLU and their liberal apologists, they are not allowed to ask. They make it illegal to ask about citizenship status, then cry a river claiming they should have "known".

He spoke English and there are millions of Mexican-Americans in Texas.

According to the new stories, they didn't know until after he was tried and convicted.

YOUR assumption is the absurd one.
 
Camlon said:
They didn't know he was a Mexican and he has lived here since he was 2 years old. If he doesn't inform them that he is a Mexican, then why should they inform him about consular access.

Also, he did get access to a representative of the Mexican government when he told them that he was a Mexican.
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You would think they would check the citizenship status of defendants rather than wait years and ensure his rights are protected BEFORE he is sentenced to death...
 
Gill said:
Great idea !!! Let's require all law enforcement to read prisoners their Miranda rights, the Bill of Rights, and each and every treaty we've ever signed.

That'll speed up the justice system........:roll:
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No, just the one that REQUIRES notification that as a foreign national he has the right to contact his consulate.
 
Taylor said:
Assuming it's true that Texas did not know he was a foreign national until well after his case was tried and appealed, how do you think they should have gone about it?
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I find it amazing that determining the citizenship status of a defendant is not standard operating procedure in an investigation... well, it is obvious that it should be...
 
ludahai said:
No, just the one that REQUIRES notification that as a foreign national he has the right to contact his consulate.
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Maybe he should have told them he was not a citizen and I'm sure they would have allowed him to contact his consulate.
 
Taylor said:
Yes, we have an obligation under our treaty committment to notify the consulate, but foreign nationals do not have a judicially enforceable right to consular access.
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The Constitution states that all judges are to regard treaties as the law of the land. Given that fact, how does this NOT become judicially enforceable?
 
justabubba said:
for this to be a valid justification for not providing the alien prisoner his counselor rights, we would have to believe tejas was never aware of his mexican citizenship
and we know that was not the case
thus, it is not a valid excuse for our nation's failure to allow due process
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If the murderer was not aware he was a Mexican, his defense lawyers not aware he was a Mexican, and the police not aware he was a Mexican, how can you expect others to know? It seemed everyone, including the defendant himself, assumed he was an American.

Not until a decade later did any any in-depth investigation occur, probably in a search for loopholes, that uncovered the truth.

They'll probably start paying closer attention to this now, if the ACLU lets them, but it won't make much difference. Illegal aliens will still be executed in Texas for murdering its citizens, though they should obviously start working on the time lag once they are found guilty.
 
X Factor said:
It an overstatement to say that this person was executed without due process. Why do I get the feeling no amount of due process would be enough for you. Isn't all this really just a case of opposing the death penalty?
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If a treaty was ignored, then so was due process. This is the case because the U.S. congress ratified the Vienna Convention... so we didn't just break UN law, we broke our own that we agreed to uphold. :shrug:
 
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