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Thread: Mexican national executed in Texas

  1. #161
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    He answered the same way I would have.

    You also continue to ignore the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled on several occasions that failure to notify a non-citizens consulate is not grounds for appeal. If the issue is not brought up during trial, the failure to notify is moot and is not basis for appeal.
    i continue to ignore the fact that the SC ruled against a stay you insist ... i have posted an excerpt from the SC's ruling. that would be an impossible feat for one who had actually ignored the SC ruling
    what we had been discussing was your insistence that the perp had been provided access to mexican counsel
    you asserted that said counsel had met with the perp many times since 2010
    i pointed out that the perp's trial took placed in the mid 90's
    if your 2010-2011 date was accurate, then the perp could NOT have received the assistance of mexican counsel previous to his conviction
    and my request, was for you to give us a cite to establish that your presentation that mexican counselor help had been provided prior to his conviction
    you have not done that
    and i can only conclude until such is provided, we cannot accept your undocumented assertion that such mexican help was timely realized

    now you have shifted gears and want to discuss whether the perp had timely requested the mexican counselor assistance
    the right to such assistance would have to be made known to him, and only then it would be for the perp to respond whether he waived or requested such assistance
    in short, you have it backwards. the responsibility for notice is in the hands of the prosecutor (as with miranda notification)

    and your side wants not to deal with the crux of this matter: precedent
    our refusal to allow an alien home country counsel to arrested aliens could be used as precedent to bar Americans in legal trouble out of country from similarly be able to access American counsel
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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  2. #162
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Wrong treaty. The applicable treaty is the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.
    Wrong graph. Right argument.

    A treaty is not binding domestic law unless Congress has passed laws implementing it, or unless it is a self-executing treaty.

    Congress has not passed such laws, and it is not self-executing treaty.

    Essentially, the treaty is not ratified because the process is incomplete.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 07-08-11 at 06:14 PM.
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  3. #163
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Not sure which part of my post you're referring to, so I'll answer both:
    1) The text of treaty never confers rights to individuals.
    2) Enforcement is not discussed anywhere in the treaty. But... at the time we had ratified (now rescinded) the Optional Protocol concerning the Compulsory Settlement of Disputes requiring us to settle matters in the ICJ. Enforcement of ICJ decisions: Article 94 of the UN Charter:

    "any party to a case fails to perform the obligations incumbent upon it under a judgment rendered by the Court, the other party may have recourse to the Security Council, which may, if it deems necessary, make recommendations or decide upon measures to be taken to give effect to the judgment."
    Charter of the United Nations: Chapter XIV: The International Court of Justice
    The treaty creates rights for the individuals of sending countries that the signatory parties are obligated to create. The ICJ treaty, which the US is a party to, grants jurisdiction in cases such as this to the ICJ, not the Security Council.
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  4. #164
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    ...for the last time...IT WASN'T RATIFIED, THEREFORE YOUR ARGUMENT IS WORTHLESS. It was signed. It was NOT ratified.
    I already debunked this claim. It WAS ratified. Your map was for the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, NOT the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which WAS ratified. You really should read responses to your post...
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  5. #165
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I thought the point was already made that the guy never revealed his immigration status prior to the trial. If that's the case, how would anybody have known to ask if he wants to exercise his right? I think a lot of people would have been screaming if it were found that they asked him if he was illegal or a foreign national based on him being Mexican in appearance...
    If during the process of investigation and trial they never discovered the man was a Mexican national, I am supposed to hane faith in their process? Really!?!??
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  6. #166
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Mere semantics.

    Congress has not passed a law to implement the Convention, and required states to abide by it. The treaty is essentially not ratified. We, despite being a signatory state, have not ratified this treaty as a nation. We're even listed as a nation that signed, but has not ratified, the treaty here: Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties between States and International Organizations or Between International Organizations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Despite the so-called "foreign policy implications" the issue has not been important enough for Congress to tackle, despite the fact that the World Court convicted us of violating the treaty seven years ago, so that argument is out the window.

    You can't trump a lower court ruling with a treaty that has not gone through the entire ratification procedure, just because the president is trying to change the law.

    Period.
    WRONG!!! You have the wrong fricken treaty!!!!
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  7. #167
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Wrong treaty. The applicable treaty is the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.
    Which I had already pointed out and he ignored...
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  8. #168
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    WRONG!!! You have the wrong fricken treaty!!!!
    Read 6 posts above.

    Then headbutt your keyboard for not paying attention.
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  9. #169
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Wrong graph. Right argument.

    A treaty is not binding domestic law unless Congress has passed laws implementing it, or unless it is a self-executing treaty.

    Congress has not passed such laws, and it is not self-executing treaty.

    Essentially, the treaty is not ratified because the process is incomplete.
    Again, wrong. Read the Constitution. President signs, Senate ratifies... you are simply trying to cover up the fact that you should have serious egg on face for citing the wrong treaty
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  10. #170
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    If during the process of investigation and trial they never discovered the man was a Mexican national, I am supposed to hane faith in their process? Really!?!??
    If it wasn't a federal investigation there would have been no reason to run checks on his documents. This was 20 years ago...we didn't have a lot of digital databases back then.
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