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Thread: Mexican national executed in Texas

  1. #141
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    No, you would want American consul, and as long as that country signed and ratified the same treaty that we did, they are obligated to meet this demand.
    Yes. The US has obligations under the treaty.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    This man was not given the protection afforded to him in court by the law. This is denial of due process.
    No. The treaty does not grant a legally binding individual right to consul access. No such right is part of the treaty we signed.

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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    First of all, I really don't think access to the Mexican consulate will change this man's final outcome which he deserved. I bet in mexico he'd be shot just as well. But the fact is that we gone ahead w/o giving his the due process. This is damaging to our legal system in the long run. We cannot bypass the law as we see fit, even if we say the outcome will be the same, it's still the law and must be respected. Especially we are talking about foreign national here. People from US will have to go to other countries, if we cannot follow the international accords we signed, how can we expect other to honor their words. This man does not deserve my pity or sympathy, but the law and international accords needs to be respected and followed.
    Last edited by jding; 07-08-11 at 12:35 PM.

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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    It was in the story linked in the OP:

    .
    so, you believe he had access to counsel even if it was after he had already been convicted and sentenced
    that would be funny if you had intended it to be so
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    I'm somewhat torn on this .. The state's concern would be to follow the laws of the state . . prosecute the person based on the evidence. It would seem to me that it's up to the defense to bring this up during the trial .. while some here keep blaming the state saying they should have known, why is it that they aren't asking why this killer didn't inform his attorney, or for that matter the police when they were questioning him? What makes it the responsibility of the state, more then of the individual or his defense team?

    As for concerns over this effecting our citizens going to another country, I'm not sure I could feel sorry for them if they waited two years to tell anyone that they were American. Just taking a guess here .. but I'm pretty sure that 99% of them that are arrested in another country, that is probably one of the first things they tell everyone ..

    Another thing that I'm confused about … it's being said that we broke some sort of international law... yet our very own SC said we didn't .. While I agree we are a nation that should obey our laws, I'm confused as to where we are suppose to go beyond the Supreme Court to find out if we are. They refused to deny the execution, so by their judgment we did in fact obey all the laws.
    You've asked some basic and important questions here, The Barbarian, such as where does the State's responsibility end and the accused, and his defense attorneys, begin. Is it the job of the Federal Government to investigate every person charged with a crime to be sure they are American? Will there be a new law requiring that people's nationality be questioned whenever they are arrested? This has already been disputed by the ACLU.

    What seems apparent in these cases is that there are those who are eager to find fault with the American justice system, the American people, and even Texans, and will make any sort of dubious arguments to support their biases. These same people might start looking at Mexican justice if they want a real eye-opener, but chances are they know nothing about it.

  5. #145
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    so, you believe he had access to counsel even if it was after he had already been convicted and sentenced
    that would be funny if you had intended it to be so
    He obviously had access to COUNSEL before, during, and after his conviction.

    He had access to his CONSULATE only after authorities found out he was a Mexican national.

    Your post IS funny, whether intended or not.

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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    so, you believe he had access to counsel even if it was after he had already been convicted and sentenced
    that would be funny if you had intended it to be so
    He had access to counsel during his trial. That is not under dispute. You appear to be confusing the terms.

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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    When the treaty itself doesn't create a judicially enforceable right.

    This one has as its only mode of enforcement referral of one nation by another to the UN the security council. That's what we agreed to. That's what was signed. That's what was ratified. If you want the treaty committments to be enforced in our domestic courts, you need to get Congress to address that issue.
    Where do you get that from the text of the treaty?
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    No. The treaty does not grant a legally binding individual right to consul access. No such right is part of the treaty we signed.
    What you don't seem to get is that it does, in fact, grant exactly this...
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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    He obviously had access to COUNSEL before, during, and after his conviction.

    He had access to his CONSULATE only after authorities found out he was a Mexican national.

    Your post IS funny, whether intended or not.
    his trial was in the 90's
    now let's see when you insist he benefited from mexican counsel:
    Eventually, between 2010 and 2011, Leal was visited by a representative of the Mexican government more than 10 times, said Judy Garces, press relations spokeswoman with the Mexican Consulate in San Antonio
    gotta time machine or what
    how did mexican counsel in 2010 assist him in his trial in the mid 90's?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Mexican national executed in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Where do you get that from the text of the treaty?
    Not sure which part of my post you're referring to, so I'll answer both:
    1) The text of treaty never confers rights to individuals.
    2) Enforcement is not discussed anywhere in the treaty. But... at the time we had ratified (now rescinded) the Optional Protocol concerning the Compulsory Settlement of Disputes requiring us to settle matters in the ICJ. Enforcement of ICJ decisions: Article 94 of the UN Charter:

    "any party to a case fails to perform the obligations incumbent upon it under a judgment rendered by the Court, the other party may have recourse to the Security Council, which may, if it deems necessary, make recommendations or decide upon measures to be taken to give effect to the judgment."
    Charter of the United Nations: Chapter XIV: The International Court of Justice

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