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‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

apdst said:
You seem to have very little first hand experience in the military, if you think I'm wrong.
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I have some experience, and I think he's right. Just saying . . . . :coffeepap
 
Boo Radley said:
I have some experience, and I think he's right. Just saying . . . . :coffeepap
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Weren't you AWOL from your unit, one time? Highly disciplined and mature soldiers don't do that.

Not to mention, I think you're knowingly full of doo-doo, if you are claiming that junior enlisted personel don't need constant adult supervision.

You know better...if, in fact, you served in the military...just sayin'.
 
apdst said:
Weren't you AWOL from your unit, one time? Highly disciplined and mature soldiers don't do that.

Not to mention, I think you're knowingly full of doo-doo, if you are claiming that junior enlisted personel don't need constant adult supervision.

You know better...if, in fact, you served in the military...just sayin'.
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Yeah I was. Car broke down. And I called in, kept in touch and accepted my punishment. I tend to think that was the mature way to handle it.

I know that even young soliders are mature enough to be professional and follow orders. If they are not, we shouldn't be giving them guns.

I was a medic at Fort Bragg. I served in HHB Divarty. I was in the 82nd Airborne. I think I can speak on the subject.
 
Boo Radley said:
Yeah I was. Car broke down. And I called in, kept in touch and accepted my punishment. I tend to think that was the mature way to handle it.
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I remember that story and I still think you had a supremely chicken **** 1st Sgt.

I know that even young soliders are mature enough to be professional and follow orders. If they are not, we shouldn't be giving them guns.

I was a medic at Fort Bragg. I served in HHB Divarty. I was in the 82nd Airborne. I think I can speak on the subject.
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That's right. They follow orders. Why? Because they require a lot of adult supervision.

If soldiers didn't need so much adult supervision, there wouldn't be so many NCO's in your average unit. Everyone would all be the same rank. A mech infantry platoon consists of about 30 soldiers, 12 are NCO's and 1 is an officer. That's a lot of surpervision for 17 junior enlisted soldiers...don't you think?

I was at Ft. Polk, Ft. Hood, Baumholder, Camp Grieves and Ft. Riley--Ft. Polk and Ft. Hood, twice- during my 12 years in the Bradleys and made the rank of E-7 and was acting 1st Sgt. when I ETS'ed. I've picked up soldiers out of the local drunk tank and seen soldiers from my platoon prosecuted for everything from rape, to car theft, to shop lifting, to sexual harassment of a senior officer. So...I can definitely speak with authority on the subject.
 
apdst said:
I remember that story and I still think you had a supremely chicken **** 1st Sgt.



That's right. They follow orders. Why? Because they require a lot of adult supervision.

If soldiers didn't need so much adult supervision, there wouldn't be so many NCO's in your average unit. Everyone would all be the same rank. A mech infantry platoon consists of about 30 soldiers, 12 are NCO's and 1 is an officer. That's a lot of surpervision for 17 junior enlisted soldiers...don't you think?

I was at Ft. Polk, Ft. Hood, Baumholder, Camp Grieves and Ft. Riley--Ft. Polk and Ft. Hood, twice- during my 12 years in the Bradleys and made the rank of E-7 and was acting 1st Sgt. when I ETS'ed. I've picked up soldiers out of the local drunk tank and seen soldiers from my platoon prosecuted for everything from rape, to car theft, to shop lifting, to sexual harassment of a senior officer. So...I can definitely speak with authority on the subject.
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I'm really shock at your low opinion of the military. I don't think we should let them go to war if they need this much supervision. Seriously, if they are not adult enough to handle something as small as this, they are not adult enough to sent to war. Adults don't put children in harms way.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm really shock at your low opinion of the military. I don't think we should let them go to war if they need this much supervision. Seriously, if they are not adult enough to handle something as small as this, they are not adult enough to sent to war. Adults don't put children in harms way.
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I'm starting to think that you were in such a pog unit, that you didn't get a real taste of the Army. Then again, you only served in one unit, so your experience is extremely limited. And, you did serve in DIVARTY in the elite 82nd Airborne, so I'm sure you didn't get a real taste of other breeds that exist in the Army. You damn sure never served in a grunt unit.

When I was with 5/6 INF we kept our bayonets with the rest of our TA-50...until a soldier from 4/6 forcibly raped a chick with his bayonet. Then we had to turn them into the arms room, with our weapon.
 
apdst said:
I'm starting to think that you were in such a pog unit, that you didn't get a real taste of the Army. Then again, you only served in one unit, so your experience is extremely limited. And, you did serve in DIVARTY in the elite 82nd Airborne, so I'm sure you didn't get a real taste of other breeds that exist in the Army. You damn sure never served in a grunt unit.

When I was with 5/6 INF we kept our bayonets with the rest of our TA-50...until a soldier from 4/6 forcibly raped a chick with his bayonet. Then we had to turn them into the arms room, with our weapon.
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Aparently I was in a unit that is much more professional that what you served in. We were adults, professionals. it is me arguing that soldiers are too immature to be professional and handle ****.
 
Boo Radley said:
Aparently I was in a unit that is much more professional that what you served in. We were adults, professionals. it is me arguing that soldiers are too immature to be professional and handle ****.
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I have to agree with him. In 12 years I saw much the same.

When you have 17 to 20, 18 to 21 year olds, it has issues to be dealt with. Immaturity and lack of professionalism is one of them.

All the training in the world can not fix it in some cases.
 
Boo Radley said:
Aparently I was in a unit that is much more professional that what you served in. We were adults, professionals. it is me arguing that soldiers are too immature to be professional and handle ****.
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You were in the rear echelon of an elite unit. Of course your experience was different.
 
Blackdog said:
I have to agree with him. In 12 years I saw much the same.

When you have 17 to 20, 18 to 21 year olds, it has issues to be dealt with. Immaturity and lack of professionalism is one of them.

All the training in the world can not fix it in some cases.
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If true, and this is too huge for them to handle, they should not be entrusted with weapons and war.
 
Boo Radley said:
If true, and this is too huge for them to handle, they should not be entrusted with weapons and war.
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Hence the reason for the all the supervision...as has been pointed out!

How many NCO's and officers were in your chain of command between you and the battalion commander? 5? 6?
 
Boo Radley said:
If true, and this is too huge for them to handle, they should not be entrusted with weapons and war.
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Not really, that would be over reacting to human nature. This is why we have close supervision of troops along with rigorous training etc. This way we at least make an effort to avoid things like abugarade prison or the reports on UN troops etc acting like lawless hooligans. It does not always work but considering the amount of young people who file through the military successfully, I would say it works a majority of the time. We don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water as you would suggest.
 
Blackdog said:
Not really, that would be over reacting to human nature. This is why we have close supervision of troops along with rigorous training etc. This way we at least make an effort to avoid things like abugarade prison or the reports on UN troops etc acting like lawless hooligans. It does not always work but considering the amount of young people who file through the military successfully, I would say it works a majority of the time. We don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water as you would suggest.
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I guess I just have a higher opinion and expectation. Many say that if they are old enough to serve, for example, they're old enough to drink. You suggest they are neither. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect enough maturity to handle much thrown at them. And if this is too much, and we're going to argue they are really children and not adults, which keep in mind I disagree with, then it is you who I think are arguing they shouldn't be in the position they are in. We don't and shouldn't give children this much responsibility.
 
Boo Radley said:
I guess I just have a higher opinion and expectation. Many say that if they are old enough to serve, for example, they're old enough to drink. You suggest they are neither. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect enough maturity to handle much thrown at them. And if this is too much, and we're going to argue they are really children and not adults, which keep in mind I disagree with, then it is you who I think are arguing they shouldn't be in the position they are in. We don't and shouldn't give children this much responsibility.
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No, no and again no.

You are going over the top. Did you read what I said? Did you even look at it?

If you are not going to respond to what I actually said, please don't bother.
 
Boo Radley said:
I guess I just have a higher opinion and expectation. Many say that if they are old enough to serve, for example, they're old enough to drink. You suggest they are neither. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect enough maturity to handle much thrown at them. And if this is too much, and we're going to argue they are really children and not adults, which keep in mind I disagree with, then it is you who I think are arguing they shouldn't be in the position they are in. We don't and shouldn't give children this much responsibility.
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Meanwhile back in the real world, if soldiers were as dsciplined and machine like as you, "expect", them to be, there would be no need for the Uniformed Code of Military Justice. No such thing as an Article 15, no sexual harassment rules, no rules of war to prevent war crimes. If soldiers didn't do stupid ****.
 
Zyphlin said:
I feel uncomfortable working with people who don't respect personal space and generally have issues working with them. Would you state I'm bigoted towards people who don't respect personal space? Some people are uncomfortable working with people who talk a lot about their sex lives and have issues working with them. Are those people bigoted against sexually open people? Some individuals feel uncomfortable significantly older than them and prefer not to work with them due to issues relating and communicating well? Are those individuals bigoted against old people?

Its ridiculous to think that people can't be uncomfortable about a certain group of people or feel that they would work less optimally with them in a general sense MUST be bigots.



You are demonstrating this point rather well.

I've got no issue with you being gay. It has nothing to do with you being gay. It has everything to do with you insulting an entire grouping of people baselessly. Being gay doesn't give you a special card to make your own bigoted statements any less bigoted.
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In a way what you are talking about could be seen as bigotry yes. What you are referring to are habits that some people have or your on personal idiosyncrasies. What am talking about is people who don't like blacks because they are black or gays because they are gay. That is what the topic is about. If you dislike black because they are black you are in fact a bigot. If you don't want to be around gays because they are gay you are a bigot and I am absolutely correct on this point. If there are people in the military that would have a problem serving with an openly gay or lesbian person that are in fact bigots. There is no doubt.
You keep wanting to make me a bigot which is asinine. I deal with straight people everyday and have dealt with them all my life. Some of my best friends are straight. I have no problem with straight people because they are straight. I do like many people have an issue with bigots and bigotry.
Do you have a problem with bigotry? Do you have a problem with bigots?
Now if you think having issues with bigotry is bigoted you have a serious problem.
 
Blackdog said:
No, no and again no.

You are going over the top. Did you read what I said? Did you even look at it?

If you are not going to respond to what I actually said, please don't bother.
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You're getting too angry too fast. I did read what you said, and while I actually believe you're closer to me than Apdst, you're overreacting to my trying to stress a point. Yes, they are young. But not so as to not be able to handle adult issues. In fact, you only encourage immature behavior by treating them as if they weren't adults. Young adults have to be treated like adults, have expectations that are adult in nature, and demand that they live up to those expectations. yes, some will faulter, but fewer if the expectation is high than if it is low. This too is human nature.
 
Boo Radley said:
You're getting too angry too fast. I did read what you said, and while [/b]I actually believe you're closer to me than Apdst[/b], you're overreacting to my trying to stress a point. Yes, they are young. But not so as to not be able to handle adult issues. In fact, you only encourage immature behavior by treating them as if they weren't adults.
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Blackdog and I are saying the same damn thing!

Young adults have to be treated like adults, have expectations that are adult in nature, and demand that they live up to those expectations. yes, some will faulter, but fewer if the expectation is high than if it is low. This too is human nature.
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They are treated like adults. Some of those same adults **** up the priveledge, too. Hence the need for barracks restriction, restriction to the company area, reduction in rank, loss of pay. The Manheim Army Stockade, Schofield Barracks, The 8th Army Stockade in Yongsan, S. Korea.
 
apdst said:
They are treated like adults. Some of those same adults **** up the priveledge, too. Hence the need for barracks restriction, restriction to the company area, reduction in rank, loss of pay. The Manheim Army Stockade, Schofield Barracks, The 8th Army Stockade in Yongsan, S. Korea.
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I think the point Boo and some others are trying to say here is that YES, some will screw up, but not the majority.

Will there be issues with the ban being lifted? Absolutely. Just like when black soldiers were allowed to be integrated with whites. However, do those incidents warrant the ban to remain in place? I don't think so.

I know our military is professional enough as a whole to handle the ban being lifted. There will be problems I'm sure, hell there are problems now with it and those people that screw up are dealt with. Always a few bad apples no matter where you go, but as a whole our military is highly professional.
 
apdst said:
Blackdog and I are saying the same damn thing!



They are treated like adults. Some of those same adults **** up the priveledge, too. Hence the need for barracks restriction, restriction to the company area, reduction in rank, loss of pay. The Manheim Army Stockade, Schofield Barracks, The 8th Army Stockade in Yongsan, S. Korea.
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I don't think you are. I hear more from you that they are children, not old enough or mature enough to handle anything. not just a few, but the overwhelming majority. Where I differ is in that I understand that you get more adult behavior when you expect adult behavior, treat adults like adults and only punish those who don't live up to the expectation.
 
Boo Radley said:
You're getting too angry too fast. I did read what you said, and while I actually believe you're closer to me than Apdst, you're overreacting to my trying to stress a point.
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I am not angry but I don't like gross exaggerations like your statement was. You basically took my statement to a ridicules extreme that had nothing at all to do with what I said.

Boo Radley said:
Yes, they are young. But not so as to not be able to handle adult issues. In fact, you only encourage immature behavior by treating them as if they weren't adults. Young adults have to be treated like adults, have expectations that are adult in nature, and demand that they live up to those expectations. yes, some will faulter, but fewer if the expectation is high than if it is low. This too is human nature.
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Again this is completely wrong. They can handle adult issues, this does not make adult or seasoned supervision by NCO's unnecessary. No one is treating them like children or other than adults. Supervision and rigorous training is NOT in any way treating them like children, It is the military.

Human nature is young people will act like young people no matter the expectations. Some will fly, some will not. This does not change the need for supervising young troops.
 
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Boo Radley said:
I don't think you are. I hear more from you that they are children, not old enough or mature enough to handle anything. not just a few, but the overwhelming majority. Where I differ is in that I understand that you get more adult behavior when you expect adult behavior, treat adults like adults and only punish those who don't live up to the expectation.
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I agree with his assessment of supervision of younger troops. I do not agree with his assessment of DADT, and feel the troops will handle it just fine. Will some incidents happen? Most likely. This does not however mean it should continue to be enforced in any way.
 
digsbe said:
I support the repeal of DADT. But people largely don't oppose it because they are bigots.
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...and white country clubs didn't ban blacks because they were racist. Black people just didn't fit in well with the Feng Shui of the place. :roll:
 
Blackdog said:
I am not angry but I don't like gross exaggerations like your statement was. You basically took my statement to a ridicules extreme that had nothing at all to do with what I said.
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Yes I did, for a point, as you were entering into mind and his discussion, which was that DADT should be retained because they were not mature enough to handle it. If we accept that point, which I find extreme, we can go to other extremes. And remember I have repeatedly stated I don't agree they are that immature.


Again this is completely wrong. They can handle adult issues, this does not make adult or seasoned supervision by NCO's unnecessary. No one is treating them like children or other than adults. Supervision and rigorous training is NOT in any way treating them like children, It is the military.

Human nature is young people will act like young people no matter the expectations. Some will fly, some will not. This does not change the need for supervising young troops.
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Like I said, we agree they are adult. No where have I said a word about not needing NCO's or commanders or even some supervision (though not the word I would use). Nor do I oppose training.

But let me try to be clear, when I speak of treating like children, I'm speaking to his specific claim that they are not mature enough to accept an end to DADT. If we have to shield them that much, then we are treating them like children. I say they are adults. Treat them like adults. And punish those who rail to live up to the expectation. But don't shield them as if they were children, saying they can't handle the change.
 
Blackdog said:
I agree with his assessment of supervision of younger troops. I do not agree with his assessment of DADT, and feel the troops will handle it just fine. Will some incidents happen? Most likely. This does not however mean it should continue to be enforced in any way.
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Like I said, I think you're closer to me.
 
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