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Thread: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

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    Re: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I feel uncomfortable working with people who don't respect personal space and generally have issues working with them. Would you state I'm bigoted towards people who don't respect personal space? Some people are uncomfortable working with people who talk a lot about their sex lives and have issues working with them. Are those people bigoted against sexually open people? Some individuals feel uncomfortable significantly older than them and prefer not to work with them due to issues relating and communicating well? Are those individuals bigoted against old people?

    Its ridiculous to think that people can't be uncomfortable about a certain group of people or feel that they would work less optimally with them in a general sense MUST be bigots.



    You are demonstrating this point rather well.

    I've got no issue with you being gay. It has nothing to do with you being gay. It has everything to do with you insulting an entire grouping of people baselessly. Being gay doesn't give you a special card to make your own bigoted statements any less bigoted.
    In a way what you are talking about could be seen as bigotry yes. What you are referring to are habits that some people have or your on personal idiosyncrasies. What am talking about is people who don't like blacks because they are black or gays because they are gay. That is what the topic is about. If you dislike black because they are black you are in fact a bigot. If you don't want to be around gays because they are gay you are a bigot and I am absolutely correct on this point. If there are people in the military that would have a problem serving with an openly gay or lesbian person that are in fact bigots. There is no doubt.
    You keep wanting to make me a bigot which is asinine. I deal with straight people everyday and have dealt with them all my life. Some of my best friends are straight. I have no problem with straight people because they are straight. I do like many people have an issue with bigots and bigotry.
    Do you have a problem with bigotry? Do you have a problem with bigots?
    Now if you think having issues with bigotry is bigoted you have a serious problem.
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    Re: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No, no and again no.

    You are going over the top. Did you read what I said? Did you even look at it?

    If you are not going to respond to what I actually said, please don't bother.
    You're getting too angry too fast. I did read what you said, and while I actually believe you're closer to me than Apdst, you're overreacting to my trying to stress a point. Yes, they are young. But not so as to not be able to handle adult issues. In fact, you only encourage immature behavior by treating them as if they weren't adults. Young adults have to be treated like adults, have expectations that are adult in nature, and demand that they live up to those expectations. yes, some will faulter, but fewer if the expectation is high than if it is low. This too is human nature.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #93
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    Re: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You're getting too angry too fast. I did read what you said, and while [/b]I actually believe you're closer to me than Apdst[/b], you're overreacting to my trying to stress a point. Yes, they are young. But not so as to not be able to handle adult issues. In fact, you only encourage immature behavior by treating them as if they weren't adults.
    Blackdog and I are saying the same damn thing!

    Young adults have to be treated like adults, have expectations that are adult in nature, and demand that they live up to those expectations. yes, some will faulter, but fewer if the expectation is high than if it is low. This too is human nature.
    They are treated like adults. Some of those same adults **** up the priveledge, too. Hence the need for barracks restriction, restriction to the company area, reduction in rank, loss of pay. The Manheim Army Stockade, Schofield Barracks, The 8th Army Stockade in Yongsan, S. Korea.

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    Re: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    They are treated like adults. Some of those same adults **** up the priveledge, too. Hence the need for barracks restriction, restriction to the company area, reduction in rank, loss of pay. The Manheim Army Stockade, Schofield Barracks, The 8th Army Stockade in Yongsan, S. Korea.
    I think the point Boo and some others are trying to say here is that YES, some will screw up, but not the majority.

    Will there be issues with the ban being lifted? Absolutely. Just like when black soldiers were allowed to be integrated with whites. However, do those incidents warrant the ban to remain in place? I don't think so.

    I know our military is professional enough as a whole to handle the ban being lifted. There will be problems I'm sure, hell there are problems now with it and those people that screw up are dealt with. Always a few bad apples no matter where you go, but as a whole our military is highly professional.

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    Re: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Blackdog and I are saying the same damn thing!



    They are treated like adults. Some of those same adults **** up the priveledge, too. Hence the need for barracks restriction, restriction to the company area, reduction in rank, loss of pay. The Manheim Army Stockade, Schofield Barracks, The 8th Army Stockade in Yongsan, S. Korea.
    I don't think you are. I hear more from you that they are children, not old enough or mature enough to handle anything. not just a few, but the overwhelming majority. Where I differ is in that I understand that you get more adult behavior when you expect adult behavior, treat adults like adults and only punish those who don't live up to the expectation.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You're getting too angry too fast. I did read what you said, and while I actually believe you're closer to me than Apdst, you're overreacting to my trying to stress a point.
    I am not angry but I don't like gross exaggerations like your statement was. You basically took my statement to a ridicules extreme that had nothing at all to do with what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, they are young. But not so as to not be able to handle adult issues. In fact, you only encourage immature behavior by treating them as if they weren't adults. Young adults have to be treated like adults, have expectations that are adult in nature, and demand that they live up to those expectations. yes, some will faulter, but fewer if the expectation is high than if it is low. This too is human nature.
    Again this is completely wrong. They can handle adult issues, this does not make adult or seasoned supervision by NCO's unnecessary. No one is treating them like children or other than adults. Supervision and rigorous training is NOT in any way treating them like children, It is the military.

    Human nature is young people will act like young people no matter the expectations. Some will fly, some will not. This does not change the need for supervising young troops.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 07-09-11 at 04:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't think you are. I hear more from you that they are children, not old enough or mature enough to handle anything. not just a few, but the overwhelming majority. Where I differ is in that I understand that you get more adult behavior when you expect adult behavior, treat adults like adults and only punish those who don't live up to the expectation.
    I agree with his assessment of supervision of younger troops. I do not agree with his assessment of DADT, and feel the troops will handle it just fine. Will some incidents happen? Most likely. This does not however mean it should continue to be enforced in any way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I support the repeal of DADT. But people largely don't oppose it because they are bigots.
    ...and white country clubs didn't ban blacks because they were racist. Black people just didn't fit in well with the Feng Shui of the place.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I am not angry but I don't like gross exaggerations like your statement was. You basically took my statement to a ridicules extreme that had nothing at all to do with what I said.
    Yes I did, for a point, as you were entering into mind and his discussion, which was that DADT should be retained because they were not mature enough to handle it. If we accept that point, which I find extreme, we can go to other extremes. And remember I have repeatedly stated I don't agree they are that immature.


    Again this is completely wrong. They can handle adult issues, this does not make adult or seasoned supervision by NCO's unnecessary. No one is treating them like children or other than adults. Supervision and rigorous training is NOT in any way treating them like children, It is the military.

    Human nature is young people will act like young people no matter the expectations. Some will fly, some will not. This does not change the need for supervising young troops.
    Like I said, we agree they are adult. No where have I said a word about not needing NCO's or commanders or even some supervision (though not the word I would use). Nor do I oppose training.

    But let me try to be clear, when I speak of treating like children, I'm speaking to his specific claim that they are not mature enough to accept an end to DADT. If we have to shield them that much, then we are treating them like children. I say they are adults. Treat them like adults. And punish those who rail to live up to the expectation. But don't shield them as if they were children, saying they can't handle the change.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: ĎDonít Ask, Donít Tellí Ban Must Take Effect, Court Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I agree with his assessment of supervision of younger troops. I do not agree with his assessment of DADT, and feel the troops will handle it just fine. Will some incidents happen? Most likely. This does not however mean it should continue to be enforced in any way.
    Like I said, I think you're closer to me.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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