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Thread: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

  1. #51
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    Re: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You said many things in that thread, not just that it shouldn't be expoited
    Actually, that's all I said.

    Now would be a good time to produce those links.

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    Re: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Where to begin. It has nothing to do with the topic. It's not likely true. It smells of partisan nonsense. Wars cannot be fought without poltical realities. We have civilian leadership for a reason.
    All good points. Not partisan though, both parties are responsible. The mission in Afghanistan right now according to a young friend who deployed there 2 months ago is to "Win hearts and minds." He was trained to be part of a tank unit, but tanks don't win hearts and minds, so he is patrolling the streets of Kabul on foot. That's what I'm talking about. They are trained as soldiers and asked to win hearts and minds. While their enemies hide and attack from behind the hearts and minds they are trying to win. Do you see?
    Last edited by Marshabar; 07-07-11 at 12:16 AM.

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    Re: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Actually, that's all I said.

    Now would be a good time to produce those links.
    Sure

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...post1059616618

    In that post you say

    Absolutely goddamned right!!!!!!
    in response to deltabtry's post which says (in part)

    One thing about being in the military in all branches that if the worst is to happen, we all want to be remembered as a soldier, airman, sailor or marine,
    Instead of remembering these dead soldiers as "soldier, airman, sailor or marine", you are remembering them as people who entered service with a mental illness.
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    Re: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I never even knew that this was banned. Good reversal in my opinion.

    Now as a vet, I see that there are valid points here. Yes, there are ****ed up people that get in the military and then snap due to unknown pre-existing conditions (Eric Harris, one of the Columbione shooters tried to get in the Marines, but was not allowed in due to his psych meds) . That's why it's important for boot camps to be harder, rather than softer. To weed them out in a controlled environment where they have less chance to harm themselves or others. There are also some who come back different from injuries suffered in combat, or could make it through a "softer" boot camp and then not be properly prepared (as much as one can) for the stresses that combat roles entail. Other things might be personal issues that simply arose while in the service. The actual "service" had nothing to do with it, nor were they suicidal prior. There are as many reasons and avenues for the path to suicide being a service member as there are for civilians. Some will paint suicide in the military as being directly tied to being in the military and others will say it has nothing to do with their service. The truth may include both ends of that spectrum, and anywhere in between. Some people (who incur injuries sustained in training/combat) I would feel sympathy for. Traumatic brain injuries can completely change a person. People that want to kill themselves because their g/f was ****ing another Marine, I just consider weak but thats just opinion.

    Regardless of the reasons, I see no reason why the government couldn't at least extend a condolence to the family.
    Boot camp does not last long enough to be really effective in that role. 6 + month deployments with stress piling up every day, you simply cannot simulate that.
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    Re: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Of course I'm not. It's not their fault that they were ****ed up before they enlisted.

    I was responding to the post earlier in this thread that blamed the military for those soldiers commiting suicide. But, hey, I certainly don't expect any of the hand-wringers to notice that.
    Sometimes the best thing we can do is step back, admit we went to far, and move on. Not only is it irrelevant whether it was pre-existing, nor that it is entirely unprovable either way, but whether the person had a pre-existing condition or not does not change that they served, and their family does deserve some form of comfort. It costs nothing.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Sometimes the best thing we can do is step back, admit we went to far, and move on. Not only is it irrelevant whether it was pre-existing, nor that it is entirely unprovable either way, but whether the person had a pre-existing condition or not does not change that they served, and their family does deserve some form of comfort. It costs nothing.
    One of the things that people need to step back from IMO, is the idea that mental illness is the result of some character flaw. If the man had died from a cancer that had been growing inside him when he first entered the service (ie a pre existing condition), I doubt that anyone would believe that would be a reason to dishonor his memory. But some believe that mental illness is not a health problem; it's a character flaw.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

    Good reversal of policy, my 2c.

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    Re: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

    just terrible statististics.

    More U.S. Soldiers Killed Themselves Than Died in Combat in 2010


    For the second year in a row, more American soldiersóboth enlisted men and women and veteransócommitted suicide than were killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Excluding accidents and illness, 462 soldiers died in combat, while 468 committed suicide. A difference of six isn't vast by any means, but the symbolism is significant and troubling. In 2009, there were 381 suicides by military personnel, a number that also exceeded the number of combat deaths.


    More U.S. Soldiers Killed Themselves Than Died in Combat in 2010 - Culture - GOOD
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    Re: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    just terrible statististics.

    More U.S. Soldiers Killed Themselves Than Died in Combat in 2010


    For the second year in a row, more American soldiers—both enlisted men and women and veterans—committed suicide than were killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Excluding accidents and illness, 462 soldiers died in combat, while 468 committed suicide. A difference of six isn't vast by any means, but the symbolism is significant and troubling. In 2009, there were 381 suicides by military personnel, a number that also exceeded the number of combat deaths.


    More U.S. Soldiers Killed Themselves Than Died in Combat in 2010 - Culture - GOOD
    One of the issues that, in my opinion, gains too little attention in the overall discussion of war/war planning is the expected human and financial costs related to suicide, mental health issues, etc. For a variety of reasons including but not limited to greater combat intensity, deployment/re-deployment practices, etc., modern conflicts lead to a higher incidence of stress/mental health-issues than past conflicts.

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    Re: White House to lift ban on military suicide condolences

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshabar View Post
    All good points. Not partisan though, both parties are responsible. The mission in Afghanistan right now according to a young friend who deployed there 2 months ago is to "Win hearts and minds." He was trained to be part of a tank unit, but tanks don't win hearts and minds, so he is patrolling the streets of Kabul on foot. That's what I'm talking about. They are trained as soldiers and asked to win hearts and minds. While their enemies hide and attack from behind the hearts and minds they are trying to win. Do you see?
    But that is the mission. One of the reasons why invasion and nation building should not have been done in the first place. We have civilian leadership who make these decisions. Sometimes they do so poorly. But the military would also forget about hearts and minds, or the larger picture, and instead treat all problems the same. I disagree with the current mission, but it is the mission they have. Largely they will never have the mission they want. Our job, as people who care, IMHO, is to always try to elect people who won't spend their lives needless or recklessly. I don't think we've done a good job of that, and that too has little to do with party. Some believe we only have one party in this country and all too often I have to admit they have a point. The differences between the two are really minor on the whole. Wish I could argue differently.

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