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Pot and driving:

Kal'Stang

Kal'Stang

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Pot and driving: Law enforcers struggle to define impairment level

It was his green tongue that helped give away Jimmy Candido Flores when police arrived at the fatal accident scene near Chico, Calif.

Flores had run off the road and killed a jogger, Carrie Jean Holliman, a 56-year-old Chico elementary school teacher. California Highway Patrol officers thought he might be impaired and conducted a sobriety examination. Flores’ tongue had a green coat typical of heavy marijuana users and a later test showed he had pot, as well as other drugs, in his blood.

After pleading guilty to manslaughter, Flores, a medical marijuana user, was sentenced in February to 10 years and 8 months in prison.
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Good article. I posted just the first 3 paragraphs but you should definitly read the whole thing.
 
An interesting article. I think it gives some strong evidence for the need to legalize marijuana for medical use (at least) on a national level, and do some serious studies on the effects of it, both short and long term.
 
This is what has always been so flawed about DUI and marijuana. A daily smoker can not smoke one day yet a blood test will say that they have smoked pot. They will get convicted for DUI even though they were sober.
 
molten_dragon said:
An interesting article. I think it gives some strong evidence for the need to legalize marijuana for medical use (at least) on a national level, and do some serious studies on the effects of it, both short and long term.
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Wait...legalize it in order to test it? The effects of MJ can easily be tested in a laboratory. No need to legalize it just to test it. I'm not a guinea pig.
 
Thorgasm said:
This is what has always been so flawed about DUI and marijuana. A daily smoker can not smoke one day yet a blood test will say that they have smoked pot. They will get convicted for DUI even though they were sober.
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So what do you suggest we do about driving while impaired with MJ? Also as one person in the article was saying...

Marijuana’s main ingredient – delta-9 THC – stays in the blood for an hour or more and then breaks down into metabolites that are both psychoactive and inert. But the impairing effects can linger, even after the THC is no longer in the blood, Huestis said. Because it can be absorbed into body tissue and slowly released for days, Huestis believes that heavy chronic daily users may be impaired in ways that are not yet understood.
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Its quite possible that the (normally) daily user is affected even after a couple of days of not smoking pot.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Pot and driving: Law enforcers struggle to define impairment level



Good article. I posted just the first 3 paragraphs but you should definitly read the whole thing.
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In a couple of decades of regular use I have never seen or heard of this green tongue phenomenon.

I don't have any problem with some realistic, honest impairement level being set. Driving while impaired is not cool. I speak up to strangers about it. Any substance.

Bluntly, and having driven professionally quite a bit, "impaired in unknown ways" sounds like bs to me. A significant number of completely sober people are obviously unsafe behind the wheel, and a friends dad in my youth was a taxi driver who I felt safer in the car with drunk off his ass than I did with my wife cold sober for years. Looking for some "pot smokers are .15% more likely to be involved in accidents due to distractions involving Big Gulps than non smokers" bs is just job security for an industry that is in decline. Drug enforcement. Expensive, doesn't work.
 
Kal'Stang said:
So what do you suggest we do about driving while impaired with MJ? Also as one person in the article was saying...
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I suggest we get it right. How we go about doing that is beyond my expertise.

Kal'Stang said:
Its quite possible that the (normally) daily user is affected even after a couple of days of not smoking pot.
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I would argue that the amount of the affect would rise to a level that would be considered an impairment to driving.
 
a later test showed he had pot, as well as other drugs
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Just wanted to note that.
 
If anything we need to keep marijuana illegal and reverse medical marijuana laws. To be honest medical marijuana is just a gateway to legalization and is one of the most absurd "medical" treatments that I can think of.
 
Thorgasm said:
This is what has always been so flawed about DUI and marijuana. A daily smoker can not smoke one day yet a blood test will say that they have smoked pot. They will get convicted for DUI even though they were sober.
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Which is exactly what happened to me. Stone cold sober, got pulled over with a eighth of Kush, piss tested and BOOM! got myself a DWAID.
 
digsbe said:
If anything we need to keep marijuana illegal and reverse medical marijuana laws. To be honest medical marijuana is just a gateway to legalization and is one of the most absurd "medical" treatments that I can think of.
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If we legalized marijuana there would be no need for medical marijuana laws.

I find religious doctrine dictating what medical procedures will not be allowed even more absurd.
 
Any police officer will tell you marijuana is no better than alcohol behind the wheel...most weed smokers are cross addicts...its all made up BS about how wonderful weed is

Aside from that there is no tolerance with weed, you smoke it your high period. There is no inbetweens no levels...With alcohol you can drink one or two drinks and not be impaired and there are levels of impairment depending on how much you drink....as I said there is no tolerance with weed you smoke it your high period
 
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Thorgasm said:
If we legalized marijuana there would be no need for medical marijuana laws.

I find religious doctrine dictating what medical procedures will not be allowed even more absurd.
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Is it logical to wedge asthma inhalants in cigarettes to deliver the drug by smoking and carying along with it carcinogens? If a doctor thinks THC is beneficial we have dronabinol. No need to inhalte marijuana as a form of treatment.

As to your second sentence, is this supposed to be a jab against pro-life people?
 
digsbe said:
If anything we need to keep marijuana illegal and reverse medical marijuana laws. To be honest medical marijuana is just a gateway to legalization and is one of the most absurd "medical" treatments that I can think of.
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I strongly disagree with you here Digs. I know a lot of people who are involved in the legitimate medical marijuana movement and there is simply no truth to the argument that there is no demonstrable medical benefit from pot.

As someone who is dedicated to cancer research, you should know that pot is great for nausea/lack of appetite associated with chemo. Best result to side effect ratio. And thats the real heart of the issue that is suppressed in the discussion: side effects.

Many people who use pot to manage chronic pain and other conditions cite this, that the side effects of prescription medications were unacceptable.

I've seen "studies" that "determined" that pot has no measurable pain relieving effects. But those who use it for this clearly state that it doesn't block or reduce pain so much as "distance" it. Push it out of primary attention.

As a Schedule 1 drug, no real research has been done in decades.
 
digsbe said:
Is it logical to wedge asthma inhalants in cigarettes to deliver the drug by smoking and carying along with it carcinogens? If a doctor thinks THC is beneficial we have dronabinol. No need to inhalte marijuana as a form of treatment.

As to your second sentence, is this supposed to be a jab against pro-life people?
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Most of the legitimate medical users use other means of ingestion.

Eating pot food delivers a more predictable and long term dosing.

Vaporization eliminates the smome and makes ingestion akin to an inhaler.

In other words, the smoking issue has been addressed long ago.
 
What if...? said:
I strongly disagree with you here Digs. I know a lot of people who are involved in the legitimate medical marijuana movement and there is simply no truth to the argument that there is no demonstrable medical benefit from pot.

As someone who is dedicated to cancer research, you should know that pot is great for nausea/lack of appetite associated with chemo. Best result to side effect ratio. And thats the real heart of the issue that is suppressed in the discussion: side effects.

Many people who use pot to manage chronic pain and other conditions cite this, that the side effects of prescription medications were unacceptable.

I've seen "studies" that "determined" that pot has no measurable pain relieving effects. But those who use it for this clearly state that it doesn't block or reduce pain so much as "distance" it. Push it out of primary attention.

As a Schedule 1 drug, no real research has been done in decades.
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We have medication that can deliver THC outside from smoking marijuana. As i said, we wouldn't put a blood pressure medication or asthma medication in a cigarette to be inhaled along with harmful chemicals and carcinogens.

I acknowledge the benefits of THC, but I think it's medically unnecessary to expose a patient ti harmful chemicals and carcinogens in the delivery of the drug. I made reference to dronabinol. This is a medication that delivers THC. Marijuana is not necessary.
 
digsbe said:
If anything we need to keep marijuana illegal and reverse medical marijuana laws. To be honest medical marijuana is just a gateway to legalization and is one of the most absurd "medical" treatments that I can think of.
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Well, you know I support full legalization. Not because I love MJ; I haven't touched the stuff in nearly thirty years and if it were legal tomorrow I wouldn't touch the stuff. My reasons involve excessive LE powers and the general failure of the WoD to produce results, along with hopefully reducing drug-related violence.

MJ as a pain-management drug for cancer has some plusses. Chemo makes you deathly sick; people on chemo tend not to eat, they get thin and weak, and may just die from lack of nutrition. A lot of pain-meds tend to upset the stomach too. MJ however, tends to make you want to eat. I knew a guy that started smoking weed AFTER he was on chemo for a few weeks, and it helped him eat and keep his strength up. I can't oppose that, can I?
 
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Goshin said:
Well, you know I support full legalization. Not because I love MJ; I haven't touched the stuff in nearly thirty years and if I were legal tomorrow I wouldn't touch the stuff. My reasons involve excessive LE powers and the general failure of the WoD to produce results, along with hopefully reducing drug-related violence.

MJ as a pain-management drug for cancer has some plusses. Chemo makes you deathly sick; people on chemo tend not to eat, they get thin and weak, and may just die from lack of nutrition. A lot of pain-meds tend to upset the stomach too. MJ however, tends to make you want to eat. I knew a guy that started smoking weed AFTER he was on chemo for a few weeks, and it helped him eat and keep his strength up. I can't oppose that, can I?
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As I've said though. We have the active THC molecule in pill form as dronabinol. It's medically unnecessary to legalize marijuana. And it's medically illogical to approve of a method of delivery that includes bringing into the body carcinogens and other harmful chemicals. I'm not arguing that MJ has no medical benefits. I'm arguing that MJ is unnecessary and we have better alternatives.
 
The problem is some people do not care what happens to them or other people because they don't take driving seriously. Years ago when I took drivers ed we had to go through a part of the class for 1 whole day that showed us pictures and video of what happens when people are driving impaired. One that I remember is a man who got in an accident that caused the stick shift to go through his eye socket. Do you know what the students in the class room were doing while this presentation was underway? ..Half of them were sleeping, and the rest put in earphones with music.

People can scapegoat the substance (especially when it fits their political platform) but the problem is irresponsible drivers who think they are invincible because they passed that 20 question quiz at the DMV.
 
digsbe said:
We have medication that can deliver THC outside from smoking marijuana. As i said, we wouldn't put a blood pressure medication or asthma medication in a cigarette to be inhaled along with harmful chemicals and carcinogens.

I acknowledge the benefits of THC, but I think it's medically unnecessary to expose a patient ti harmful chemicals and carcinogens in the delivery of the drug. I made reference to dronabinol. This is a medication that delivers THC. Marijuana is not necessary.
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I'm not familiar with dronabinol, but in the past pharmaceutical THC has always been expensive and very narrowly prescribable(sic?).

I have a great deal of respect for you and I don't think you are a fool or even that we disagree that much.

However, it goes a lot deeper than smoke as a delivery method. As I said upthread, oral ingestion or vaporization are the preferred delivery methods now.

More important are recent developments that began as anecdotal and are proving very interesting as they are further researched.

First is that some of the reported medical/palliative benefits are apparently not from THC but the other cannabinoids. Nausea and Aids wasting syndrome, as well as non-pain neurological issues.

Also, there are a number of anecdotal accounts of cancers being affected that I believe turned out to be associated with antioxidant properties of the plant itself.

Pot needs to be rescheduled and properly researched, as well as opened up for non-drug commercial exploitation.

Vested interests with a lot to lose if this happens are why it has not.
 
What if...? said:
Many people who use pot to manage chronic pain and other conditions cite this, that the side effects of prescription medications were unacceptable.

I've seen "studies" that "determined" that pot has no measurable pain relieving effects. But those who use it for this clearly state that it doesn't block or reduce pain so much as "distance" it. Push it out of primary attention.
That is the experience of my friend. She was put on Vicodin for a neck injury and after a few days, noticed her heart rate was greatly effected, causing her to think she might have a heart attack. After the doctor took her off of it, the symptom subsided, but she was left in pain. Eventually, she obtained her medical marijuana card and is able to function without so much pain.


What if...? said:
Vested interests with a lot to lose if this happens are why it has not.
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This is another issue. People can grow it themselves or buy it cheaply without a drug company being involved. Therefore those vested interests are going to fight to keep it illegal. Which is a shame since people like my friend, who has no health insurance, can more easily afford it.

As to the OP, after reading the article, it would seem law enforcement will have to stick to impairment as the standard of whether someone is suitable to drive or not. At least until research catches up. I don't see how someone can smoke it and get safely behind the wheel of a car any more than if they drank.

I do not smoke pot. I can't, it makes me severely nauseous, ironically enough, but I wondered how medical marijuana users will be treated in various situations, like driving or getting a job. I've had pre-employment physicals where any measurable level of pot meant I didn't get the job. For people in need of pot to manage their pain, this is a problem.
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I don't smoke pot, but I do believe it has medicinal benefits. A friend of mine got off narcotics that were messing up his liver by switching to (illegal) pot for inoperable back and neck pain, it worked better for his pain, and his bad side effects from narcos went away.
BUT-- there needs to be a line drawn here. People can't just fly around high on pot and kill people. Alcohol levels are very clear, whether or not they are correct. While I do not think some person that smoked pot a few day ago should get a DUI, I do think there needs to be a way to measure intoxication by marijuana that is clearly defined. As for getting in trouble for pot in a test during an accident when you are using it illegally, easy answer there-- stop smoking pot. It is illegal. Want it legal, try to make it legal. Until then, it's a crime.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Wait...legalize it in order to test it? The effects of MJ can easily be tested in a laboratory. No need to legalize it just to test it. I'm not a guinea pig.
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If it were legal then I think there would be a lot more effort put into testing it.
 
I smoke pot, I especially like hash but I never drive when I am high. Many dumb crashes on my Mt bike have convinced me it impairs your motor skills. Crashing on my bicycle out in the woods is fine, running someone over in a X walk seems just a bit much.
 
For me, here is the deal - Legalize weed, but if someone is smoking while driving, he should be prosecuted just as if he were drinking and driving. DUI penalties should also be severe.
 
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