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Thread: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post

    If it's just a "left wing lunacy" fear tactic, then surely you should have no problem clearly articulating which parts of the government WILL be cut. And don't forget, we're talking about cuts that will take effect next month, not long-term chronic problems that you think need to be fixed. So let's see your budget plan for which of our obligations we SHOULD suddenly stop paying.

    We're going to need to reduce spending 33% next month if the debt ceiling isn't raised, and if Obama chooses not to ignore it anyway. So if defaulting on our debts is an option that's off the table for you, please tell me which parts of our budget you want to slash in the next four weeks to balance the budget. (Hint: Shutting down all non-defense discretionary spending won't get you there.)

    I think using this kind of Allensky tactic in talking about the problem is deplorable. Most people really don't have a real grasp on not only how vast government spending is, but haven't given, nor have the time to invest going line by line. That is why we elect representatives who's sole job is to do these things on our behalf.

    Now, if you are trying to say that anyone who doesn't have an absolute concise plan at the ready to show you (who ever you think you are) can't talk about the problem that is clear, and present, then I would have to say that it is dishonest to just dismiss a point of view contrary to yours on its face.

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post

    If it's just a "left wing lunacy" fear tactic, then surely you should have no problem clearly articulating which parts of the government WILL be cut. And don't forget, we're talking about cuts that will take effect next month, not long-term chronic problems that you think need to be fixed. So let's see your budget plan for which of our obligations we SHOULD suddenly stop paying.

    We're going to need to reduce spending 33% next month if the debt ceiling isn't raised, and if Obama chooses not to ignore it anyway. So if defaulting on our debts is an option that's off the table for you, please tell me which parts of our budget you want to slash in the next four weeks to balance the budget. (Hint: Shutting down all non-defense discretionary spending won't get you there.)
    So we have to cut the budget CAUSE WE CANNOT AFFORD THE SPENDING! What a ****ing concept!
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    If the budget law is the one that is in effect, and not the debt ceiling law, then Congress could conceivably impeach the President for not enforcing the budget law. In this case, Obama has no choice about the matter. He must meet the budget obligations set out by Congress and signed by him, or else he is in violation of the law, and in peril of facing impeachment.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    If the budget law is the one that is in effect, and not the debt ceiling law, then Congress could conceivably impeach the President for not enforcing the budget law. In this case, Obama has no choice about the matter. He must meet the budget obligations set out by Congress and signed by him, or else he is in violation of the law, and in peril of facing impeachment.
    LAUGHABLE!

    So Obama has the choice of usurping powers and raising the debt limit himself thus breaking the law and the Constitution or cutting spending POST debt and being in violation of the law...

    Since he's been President for 2.5 years, sounds like his incompetence has finally caught up with him!
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I think using this kind of Allensky tactic in talking about the problem is deplorable.

    Yep, it's an "Allensky tactic" (whatever that means) to call you out on your bull**** and actually make you state where you think the government can find 33% of its budget to cut in the next four weeks.

    Most people really don't have a real grasp on not only how vast government spending is, but haven't given, nor have the time to invest going line by line. That is why we elect representatives who's sole job is to do these things on our behalf.
    Here, I'll make it easy for you, because there really aren't that many IMPORTANT line items in the federal budget. Here is the breakdown. If you don't want to raise the debt ceiling, your task is to cut 33% of spending in the next four weeks. Good luck.

    Defense: 25%
    Health care (Medicare/Medicaid/Veterans Administration): 23%
    Social security / other pensions: 21%
    Debt interest: 5% (although this will surely rise if the debt ceiling isn't raised)
    Everything else: 26%

    I await your answer as to which of these categories should be cut, and by how much. Should we stop sending out social security checks? Should we stop paying our soldiers' salaries and/or deny them the equipment they need? Should we suddenly cut off health care funding for patients who were depending on treatment next month? Or should we literally default on the debt? Even if you want to eliminate EVERYTHING ELSE THE GOVERNMENT DOES in the next four weeks, your answer must involve some combination of these options. There is no mathematical alternative.

    Now, if you are trying to say that anyone who doesn't have an absolute concise plan at the ready to show you (who ever you think you are) can't talk about the problem that is clear, and present, then I would have to say that it is dishonest to just dismiss a point of view contrary to yours on its face.
    If you don't have the vaguest idea of where these cuts are going to come from and are unwilling to learn, then you don't have any informed opinion on the subject and should STFU.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-04-11 at 05:04 PM.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    So we have to cut the budget CAUSE WE CANNOT AFFORD THE SPENDING! What a ****ing concept!
    I notice you didn't answer the question. Where do you suggest we find 33% of our budget to cut in the next month?
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    So Obama has the choice of usurping powers and raising the debt limit himself thus breaking the law and the Constitution or cutting spending POST debt and being in violation of the law...

    Since he's been President for 2.5 years, sounds like his incompetence has finally caught up with him!
    I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how your last sentence even remotely relates to your first sentence, but I've got nothing. I guess trying to figure out the logic behind your foaming-at-the-mouth rants is a lost cause.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post

    If it's just a "left wing lunacy" fear tactic, then surely you should have no problem clearly articulating which parts of the government WILL be cut. And don't forget, we're talking about cuts that will take effect next month, not long-term chronic problems that you think need to be fixed. So let's see your budget plan for which of our obligations we SHOULD suddenly stop paying.

    We're going to need to reduce spending 33% next month if the debt ceiling isn't raised, and if Obama chooses not to ignore it anyway. So if defaulting on our debts is an option that's off the table for you, please tell me which parts of our budget you want to slash in the next four weeks to balance the budget. (Hint: Shutting down all non-defense discretionary spending won't get you there.)
    It just amazes me how quickly many liberals around here support abolishment of the US Constitution in favor of partisan ideology.

    It’s a really simple concept if you bother to “think” about the issues rather than “feel” about the issues. Life would be wonderful if the federal government could provide everyone with all of our wants and desires but there isn’t enough money in the world for that and history shows us that such attempts to create such governments result in tyranny and oppression rather than the utopian society originally sought.

    First let me state once again, there are no conflicting laws at hand. That is a red herring fallacy.

    Second, in answer to your question Kandahar, if Aug. 2 comes and goes without an agreement, the government will begin to shut down just as it did under Bill Clinton when he vetoed the spending bill congress sent to him.
    LINK


    It is important to understand that the government won’t suddenly run out of money. It will still be receiving revenue but its outlays will exceed its receipts. If an agreement hasn’t been reached by Aug. 2nd, the President will be forced to shut down all non-essential services.

    If the standoff continues, the President will be forced to direct the Treasury to stop paying for specific federal services that aren’t traditionally considered “non-essential”. These would include agencies such as the FDA, EPA, HHS, HUD, USDA, USACE, DHS, BLM, CDC, CBO, CPSC, DOC, ED, DOE, DOJ, DOL, DOT etc. This is not a complete list. For an A-Z list of federal departments agencies, click here.


    In summary, the President does not have the authority to direct the Treasury to borrow more money (increase debt limit), the Treasury is required to make good on the public debt but there is no requirement that the Treasury continue to pay federal departments agencies as evidenced from previous government shutdowns.

    My point is not intended to say that a government shutdown won’t be catastrophic to our economy but it is intended to point out that government shutdowns have occurred in the past and no president or treasurer, until now, has ever suggested that the constitution be twisted to allow the President to increase borrowing on his own. To support such an idea is an absolute affront to the US Constitution and the rule of law in the United States. Or, as Sen. Cornyn said, “crazy talk”.
    Last edited by GPS_Flex; 07-04-11 at 05:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post

    Yep, it's an "Allensky tactic" (whatever that means) to call you out on your bull**** and actually make you state where you think the government can find 33% of its budget to cut in the next four weeks.
    Where do you get this “33%” number from?

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    It just amazes me how quickly many liberals around here support abolishment of the US Constitution in favor of partisan ideology.

    It’s a really simple concept if you bother to “think” about the issues rather than “feel” about the issues.
    Yes, so let's "think" about the mathematical reality of our budget, rather than "feel" what you imagine liberals believe.

    First let me state once again, there are no conflicting laws at hand. That is a red herring fallacy.
    It is a law that we spend $X on this and $Y on that. It is also a law that we can't borrow to pay for them. Both laws cannot be followed simultaneously.

    Second, in answer to your question Kandahar, if Aug. 2 comes and goes without an agreement, the government will begin to shut down just as it did under Bill Clinton when he vetoed the spending bill congress sent to him.
    LINK

    It is important to understand that the government won’t suddenly run out of money. It will still be receiving revenue but its outlays will exceed its receipts. If an agreement hasn’t been reached by Aug. 2nd, the President will be forced to shut down all non-essential services.
    I wish it were that simple, but that's not the case. When the government "shut down" before, the majority of federal spending actually continued. We continued paying the debt, we continued paying entitlements, we continued paying for defense, and we continued paying other discretionary services deemed "essential." If the government does not raise the debt ceiling, those kind of cuts will simply not be sufficient to cover the shortfall. We would need to cut 33% (EDIT: My bad, actually 43%) of all spending, effective immediately. Here's what our federal government spends its money on:

    Defense: 25%
    Health care (Medicare/Medicaid/Veterans Administration): 23%
    Social security / other pensions: 21%
    Debt interest: 5% (although this will surely rise if the debt ceiling isn't raised)
    Everything else: 26%

    The bolded part includes everything that was affected by the previous shutdown...and only SOME of the spending within the bolded part was halted. So let's assume that we once again halt all "non-essential" discretionary spending if the debt ceiling isn't raised. That would be maybe 20% of federal spending. Sorry, that's not good enough. We would STILL have a shortfall, and spending would inevitably be affected in areas that ARE deemed essential.

    If the standoff continues, the President will be forced to direct the Treasury to stop paying for specific federal services that aren’t traditionally considered “non-essential”. These would include agencies such as the FDA, EPA, HHS, HUD, USDA, USACE, DHS, BLM, CDC, CBO, CPSC, DOC, ED, DOE, DOJ, DOL, DOT etc. This is not a complete list. For an A-Z list of federal departments agencies, click here.
    Every single one of those agencies is included within the bolded section above. That's not enough.

    In summary, the President does not have the authority to direct the Treasury to borrow more money (increase debt limit), the Treasury is required to make good on the public debt but there is no requirement that the Treasury continue to pay federal departments agencies as evidenced from previous government shutdowns.
    The difference is that previous shutdowns were standoffs over BUDGET allocations, not the debt ceiling. In previous cases, the government shut down because Congress had not authorized any spending (i.e. it had failed to pass a budget). That isn't the case this time around...Congress ALREADY authorized the spending, and has simply tied Treasury's hands in its ability to actually pay for it. So yes, there IS a requirement that the Treasury continue to pay federal agencies in accordance with the 2011 federal budget, and there's no particular reason why THAT requirement should take a back seat to the debt ceiling requirement. Both are the law of the land.

    My point is not intended to say that a government shutdown won’t be catastrophic to our economy but it is intended to point out that government shutdowns have occurred in the past and no president or treasurer, until now, has ever suggested that the constitution be twisted to allow the President to increase borrowing on his own. To support such an idea is an absolute affront to the US Constitution and the rule of law in the United States. Or, as Sen. Cornyn said, “crazy talk”.
    Previous government shutdowns were a fundamentally different animal from this one, because A) most of the government spending continued under previous shutdowns, B) Congress hadn't passed mutually contradictory laws, and C) the standoff was over a different issue.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-04-11 at 05:44 PM.
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