Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 127

Thread: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

  1. #51
    Slayer of the DP Newsbot
    danarhea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    39,720

    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    This is basically true but pretty simplistic considering there is a difference between debt and spending.
    The money was already allocated by law. This is not new spending we are talking about.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

  2. #52
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    The money was already allocated by law. This is not new spending we are talking about.
    He actually brought up a good point.
    The 14th amendment only says public debt should be honored and not internal spending programs.

    In that sense, the president has the duty to pay all debts first, before anything else.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  3. #53
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,857
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Congress has authorized $X in spending and $Y in taxes, then prohibited any borrowing to finance the difference. There is no particular reason why one of these laws (the debt ceiling) should take precedence over the other (the federal budget).
    Congress hasn't prohibited any borrowing. They just haven't approved any bills that allow borrowing. There is a difference.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  4. #54
    Guru
    GPS_Flex's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    02-11-17 @ 11:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,719

    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Congress has authorized $X in spending and $Y in taxes, then prohibited any borrowing to finance the difference. There is no particular reason why one of these laws (the debt ceiling) should take precedence over the other (the federal budget).
    Like I said, just because money was authorized to be spent doesn’t mean it is debt that the 14th Amendment requires us to pay.

    Funding of the EPA, DOE, FDA, IRS, ACF, AOA, USDA etc. could be stopped as well as countless other federal programs.

    It would still put us into an economic tailspin but that would be the Presidents only available course of action (see previous government shutdowns).

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  5. #55
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    So he could, raise taxes or confiscate property as well?
    No, the president doesn't have those powers. But he does have the power to direct the actions of the Treasury Department.

    The president cannot impound spending, title X of the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974 prevents such an act.
    The only option he has is to divide the funds in mathematical proportion.
    That *IS* impounding spending. Nothing in that legislation calls for dividing funds in mathematical proportion...nor have you explained what proportion you're actually referring to. Are you saying that funds should be proportionally allocated so that the government remains in full compliance with the debt ceiling? Or are you saying that the government should exceed the debt ceiling and underfund the budget by equal dollar amounts? At what level should the funds be slashed (e.g. does the Department of Interior get a 33% cut across the board to be spent however they like, or do each of their programs get cut 33%)?

    There is no clear-cut legal precedent or constitutional interpretation of how a situation like this should be handled, and the "equal proportion" argument is nothing more than your opinion as far as I can tell.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  6. #56
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,857
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    He actually brought up a good point.
    The 14th amendment only says public debt should be honored and not internal spending programs.

    In that sense, the president has the duty to pay all debts first, before anything else.
    The 14th also states this...

    5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
    No where in the 14th does it give the power to the President when it comes to money.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  7. #57
    Guru
    GPS_Flex's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    02-11-17 @ 11:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,719

    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    The money was already allocated by law. This is not new spending we are talking about.
    Like I already said, just because money was authorized to be spent doesn’t mean it is debt that the 14th Amendment requires us to pay.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  8. #58
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    He actually brought up a good point.
    The 14th amendment only says public debt should be honored and not internal spending programs.

    In that sense, the president has the duty to pay all debts first, before anything else.
    Of course then you run into the legal minefield of what qualifies as "debt." Is social security debt? It's an obligation to which people paid in with the expectation of getting their money back, but I think most of us don't consider it a "debt" the same way that we consider a bond to be debt. But I'm hard-pressed to see any meaningful distinction between the two. What makes our obligations to bondholders more important than our obligations to pensioners, or vice versa?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-04-11 at 05:55 AM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  9. #59
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No, the president doesn't have those powers. But he does have the power to direct the actions of the Treasury Department.
    Of course.
    he could always inflate the hell out of the currency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That *IS* impounding spending. Nothing in that legislation calls for dividing funds in mathematical proportion...nor have you explained what proportion you're actually referring to. Are you saying that funds should be proportionally allocated so that the government remains in full compliance with the debt ceiling? Or are you saying that the government should exceed the debt ceiling and underfund the budget by equal dollar amounts? At what level should the funds be slashed (e.g. does the Department of Interior get a 33% cut across the board to be spent however they like, or do each of their programs get cut 33%)?

    There is no clear-cut legal precedent or constitutional interpretation of how a situation like this should be handled, and the "equal proportion" argument is nothing more than your opinion as far as I can tell.
    Impounding spend is defunding certain things he doesn't like.
    If he reduces all spending, on all programs proportionally, to meet the debt ceiling, it wouldn't count as impounding as he is not defunding certain programs.

    Although in light of GPS's point, he doesn't have to pay those necessarily, if debt is considered a higher priority, as the 14th alludes to.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #60
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Of course then you run into the legal minefield of what qualifies as "debt." Is social security debt? It's an obligation to which people paid in with the expectation of getting their money back, but I think most of us don't consider it a "debt" the same way that we consider a bond to be debt. But I'm hard-pressed to see any meaningful distinction between the two. What makes our obligations to bondholders more important than our obligations to pensioners, or vice versa?
    The bonds for SS are debt.

    The endowment of the arts and Medicare are not.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •