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Thread: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Let's see here:

    1) Congress authorized a certain amount of spending.
    2) Congress authorized a certain amount of taxes to be collected.
    3) Congress prohibited the Treasury from borrowing money to make up the difference.

    It doesn't take a PhD in Economics to see that statements 1, 2, and 3 are incompatible. Since Congress has passed contradictory laws, the executive branch will have to pick and choose which laws get enforced. It's hardly an ideal situation, but under the circumstances I can't say I blame Obama. There is no particular legal reason why #3 should take priority over #1, since Congress passed them BOTH with equal legitimacy and with equal force of the law.
    #3 is false. Only Congress can borrow money. All that the treasury can do is manage the funds that Congress gives them. If Congress does not give them enough funds to cover expenses there is nothing that the Treasury can do about it as that is not within thier mandate. (beyond petitioning Congress for more money of course)
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  2. #32
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Yes he will, below section 4 of the 14th amendment is section 5.

    "Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
    Yes, Congress has the power to authorize spending and to create silly spending caps. No one disputes that point. But nothing in the Constitution says which is a higher priority for the president to enforce.

    Then he must proportionality under pay them equally.
    Says who? Where is THAT legal principle in the Constitution? The fact is that the Constitution has nothing to say about which law should be enforced when there are two contradictory laws on the books...and certainly nothing calling for him to split the difference. Therefore I suggest he enforces them in the following order: 1) Spending, 2) The debt ceiling, 3) Spending on any minor programs that the Republicans like and Obama doesn't.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-04-11 at 05:17 AM.
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  3. #33
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If that's the case then spending would take priority over the debt ceiling. On February 12, 2010 the debt ceiling was raised to $14.3 trillion. On April 15, 2011 the federal budget which would exceed the debt ceiling became law. So by your own standard, the debt ceiling was invalidated the minute that Congress authorized additional spending.
    That could be, but I ideally we shouldn't be expanding the executive branch.

    No president should have the ability to make this decision, it sets a terrible precedent in my opinion.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, Congress has the power to authorize spending and to create silly spending caps. No one disputes that point. But nothing in the Constitution says which is a higher priority for the president to enforce.
    Then none have a higher priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Says who? Where is THAT legal principle in the Constitution? The fact is that the Constitution has nothing to say about which law should be enforced when there are two contradictory laws on the books...and certainly nothing calling for him to split the difference. Therefore I suggest he enforces them in the following order: 1) Spending, 2) The debt ceiling, 3) Spending on any minor programs that the Republicans like and Obama doesn't.
    It doesn't say which should have a higher priority, so based on the funds that are in existence to be spent, he must divvy it out proportionally, giving no particular significance to any.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That could be, but I ideally we shouldn't be expanding the executive branch.

    No president should have the ability to make this decision, it sets a terrible precedent in my opinion.
    I agree. So Congress should get to work on repealing the debt ceiling entirely so that Obama (or any other president) isn't able to prioritize from among conflicting laws.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Then none have a higher priority.
    Why?

    It doesn't say which should have a higher priority, so based on the funds that are in existence to be spent, he must divvy it out proportionally, giving no particular significance to any.
    Why?
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I agree. So Congress should get to work on repealing the debt ceiling entirely so that Obama (or any other president) isn't able to prioritize from among conflicting laws.
    He (nor any other president) have that power, it doesn't exist.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why?

    Why?
    Because there is no legal significance of which to fund more than another.
    The president is not Congress, he is meant to execute laws, in the best of his ability.

    If congress fails to fully fund everything, then he is to divide the funds proportionally.
    That is all he can do.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, Congress has the power to authorize spending and to create silly spending caps. No one disputes that point. But nothing in the Constitution says which is a higher priority for the president to enforce.
    It’s even simpler than you think Kandahar. The President does not have the authority to spend money that hasn’t been directly allocated by congress so he will have no choice but to start shutting down the federal government, while still paying our debts.

    No president in history has ever contemplated such a usurpation of legislative power and it will be a fast track case straight to the SCOTUS followed by impeachment if he tries it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Because there is no legal significance of which to fund more than another.
    The president is not Congress, he is meant to execute laws, in the best of his ability.
    And that's exactly what he'd be doing if he chose to fulfill all the financial obligations which have been authorized by Congress.

    If congress fails to fully fund everything, then he is to divide the funds proportionally.
    That is all he can do.
    Even if there were some well-established legal principle that called for him to do that (which there isn't as far as I can tell), it would be impossible. Because "dividing the funds proportionally" is inherently subjective. Are you suggesting he withhold an equal amount of funding from every line item of the budget in order to fully obey the debt ceiling law? Or are you suggesting he violate the debt ceiling law and the budget law by splitting the difference between them?
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