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Thread: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The president does not have the authority to pick and choose which laws to follow.
    He is not a dictator that is above the law.
    Congress passed CONTRADICTORY laws, so he has no CHOICE but to pick and choose which laws to follow. This isn't some philosophical legal principle, this is basic logic. If Congress passes a law mandating that the president wear a tie on Friday, and passes another law banning the president from wearing a tie on Friday, common sense says that he can't obey both laws...regardless of whether he fancies himself a dictator above the law.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-04-11 at 04:47 AM.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Let's see here:

    1) Congress authorized a certain amount of spending.
    2) Congress authorized a certain amount of taxes to be collected.
    3) Congress prohibited the Treasury from borrowing money to make up the difference.

    It doesn't take a PhD in Economics to see that statements 1, 2, and 3 are incompatible. Since Congress has passed contradictory laws, the executive branch will have to pick and choose which laws get enforced. It's hardly an ideal situation, but under the circumstances I can't say I blame Obama. There is no particular legal reason why #3 should take priority over #1, since Congress signed them BOTH into law with equal legitimacy and with equal force of the law.
    Boy am I confused ... I thought nothing actually became a law until it was signed by the President ..

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Boy am I confused ... I thought nothing actually became a law until it was signed by the President ..
    What's your point? Contradictory laws now exist on the books, so the president cannot enforce them all simultaneously. Whether or not they bear his signature has no relevance to this simple principle of logic.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Obama is going full rogue. If he continues to just do whatever he wants, I might vote for him. He should taunt congress more... "someone might not recall deploying troops if y'all don't chill out".

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Congress passed CONTRADICTORY laws, so he has no CHOICE but to pick and choose which laws to follow. This isn't some philosophical legal principle, this is basic logic. If Congress passes a law mandating that the president wear a tie on Friday, and passes another law banning the president from wearing a tie on Friday, common sense says that he can't obey both laws...regardless of whether he fancies himself a dictator above the law.
    No he doesn't.
    His job is not arbitrator of which contradictory laws to enforce, his job is to enforce the law.

    It is a philosophical legal principle.
    He will violate the separation of powers by increasing the debt limit without congressional consent.

    Also, he has the power to veto any bill that comes across his desk.

    Also #2, this is precisely why there are supposed to be limited powers for the government.
    Congress isn't supposed to pass laws for all sorts of things that they do, including what attire the president wears.

    I see this as more of the "living constitution" crap eating itself.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    No he doesn't.
    His job is not arbitrator of which contradictory laws to enforce, his job is to enforce the law.
    So he will enforce both laws? I'll wait for you to think this one through.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    So which law will he enforce? I'll wait for you to think this one through.
    The last law passed.
    If Congress passes a law that says "PBO must wear a tie," then passes a law that contradicts it, they have effectively repealed the law.

    Edit:
    He could also challenge the constitutionality in court or veto the legislation.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 07-04-11 at 05:12 AM.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    No he doesn't.
    His job is not arbitrator of which contradictory laws to enforce, his job is to enforce the law.
    You are not listening...there are two DIFFERENT laws which are mutually incompatible. It is IMPOSSIBLE for him to enforce both laws. Not just in an abstract legal sense...in a tautological A=A sense.

    He will violate the separation of powers by increasing the debt limit without congressional consent.
    But he won't be violating the separation of powers if he stops funding the programs and entitlements which Congress has authorized? What legal principle indicates that the president should enforce the debt ceiling before he enforces the spending Congress has authorized, instead of the other way around?

    Also, he has the power to veto any bill that comes across his desk.
    Irrelevant. Both the debt ceiling and the federal budget are now laws, and there is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that indicates which is a higher priority for the executive to enforce.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You are not listening...there are two DIFFERENT laws which are mutually incompatible. It is IMPOSSIBLE for him to enforce both laws. Not just in an abstract legal sense...in a tautological A=A sense.
    I understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But he won't be violating the separation of powers if he stops funding the programs and entitlements which Congress has authorized? What legal principle indicates that the president should enforce the debt ceiling before he enforces the spending Congress has authorized, instead of the other way around?
    Yes he will, below section 4 of the 14th amendment is section 5.

    "Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."

    It would be a clear violation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Irrelevant. Both the debt ceiling and the federal budget are now laws, and there is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that indicates which is a higher priority for the executive to enforce.
    Then he must proportionality under pay them equally.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The last law passed.
    If Congress passes a law that says "PBO must wear a tie," then passes a law that contradicts it, they have effectively repealed the law.
    If that's the case then spending would take priority over the debt ceiling. On February 12, 2010 the debt ceiling was raised to $14.3 trillion. On April 15, 2011 the federal budget which would exceed the debt ceiling became law. So by your own standard, the debt ceiling was invalidated the minute that Congress authorized additional spending.
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