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Thread: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    The thing he leaves out of the argument is that just because the debt ceiling isn't raised does not mean that a default on our debt is the only other course. He is employing the fallacy of the false dilemma.

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    here you go. a speech written for Obama in his enforcement of the 14th amendment provisions:

    Is The Debt Ceiling Unconstitutional?
    Again, they ignore the 5th section of the 14th Amendment and the rest of the Constitution.

    Not to mention a debt ceiling is not questioning the debt. It is suppose to be a stopper on how much the government spends. So if it is questioning anything (which its not) it is questioning how much Congress can spend.

    And seriously...an article from "Outside the Beltway"? I doubt you could have found a site that isn't more biased than that one.
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Even if the Debt ceiling is unconstitutional, its not the presidents power to ignore it or veto it.
    It the supreme courts.

  4. #124
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    nope, i think it will continue to be a huge mounting problem.

    it just won't be the end of the world, as some are painting. we have cut larger percentages of public spending before (post-WWII, for example) and seem to have survived.
    Back then it was mostly defense spending that was being cut. Now it would be the social safety net (and a good bit of defense as well). Make no mistake about it: Eliminating 43% of our federal budget with no advance notice whatsoever would be absolutely catastrophic. I mean, where are you going to find 43% to suddenly cut, when our spending looks like this?

    Defense: 25%
    Health care: 23%
    Social security/pensions: 21%
    Debt interest: 5% (plus more if we're in a de facto default)
    Everything else: 26%
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  5. #125
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It is a law that we spend $X on this and $Y on that. It is also a law that we can't borrow to pay for them. Both laws cannot be followed simultaneously.
    Wrong. Money allocated by congress does not constitute a law requiring the money be spent. Appropriations are a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for spending. Just because there is money in your budget does not empower you to spend money that does not exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I wish it were that simple, but that's not the case. When the government "shut down" before, the majority of federal spending actually continued. We continued paying the debt, we continued paying entitlements, we continued paying for defense, and we continued paying other discretionary services deemed "essential." If the government does not raise the debt ceiling, those kind of cuts will simply not be sufficient to cover the shortfall. We would need to cut 33% of all spending, effective immediately. Here's what our federal government spends its money on:

    Defense: 25%
    Health care (Medicare/Medicaid/Veterans Administration): 23%
    Social security / other pensions: 21%
    Debt interest: 5% (although this will surely rise if the debt ceiling isn't raised)
    Everything else: 26%

    The bolded part includes everything that was affected by the previous shutdown...and only SOME of the spending within the bolded part was halted. So let's assume that we once again halt all "non-essential" discretionary spending if the debt ceiling isn't raised. That would be maybe 20% of federal spending. Sorry, that's not good enough. We would STILL have a shortfall, and spending would inevitably be affected in areas that ARE deemed essential.
    Please provide some sources for your 33% and spending breakdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Every single one of those agencies is included within the bolded section above. That's not enough.
    Itís not as simple as that in reality. Some functions for some of those agencies falls into the mandatory spending category and some doesnít. This is why your simple breakdown is about as useful as a solar powered flashlight.
    Please do some research on Discretionary spending vs Mandatory spending.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The difference is that previous shutdowns were standoffs over BUDGET allocations, not the debt ceiling. In previous cases, the government shut down because Congress had not authorized any spending (i.e. it had failed to pass a budget). That isn't the case this time around...Congress ALREADY authorized the spending, and has simply tied Treasury's hands in its ability to actually pay for it. So yes, there IS a requirement that the Treasury continue to pay federal agencies in accordance with the 2011 federal budget, and there's no particular reason why THAT requirement should take a back seat to the debt ceiling requirement. Both are the law of the land.
    Your argument doesnít hold water. There are many types of laws, statutes, resolutions and other bills and they are not all equal. Not everything that is passed by congress carries the force of law (resolutions for example).

    Add to that the simple fact that there is a difference between money allocations/budgets and actual cash. You see, no agency can spend money that it doesnít have and the money will no longer be available until the debt limit is raised. The treasury doesnít just send everyone big fat checks for the full amount allotted to them upon passage of a budget resolution. It doesnít work that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Previous government shutdowns were a fundamentally different animal from this one, because A) most of the government continued to operate under previous shutdowns, B) Congress hadn't passed mutually contradictory laws, and C) the standoff was over a different issue.
    I agree that most of the government will not continue to operate if the debt limit isnít raised but there are not contradictory laws that have been passed. There are only politicians who are not doing their jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  6. #126
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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's the current proportion of our federal expenditures that are not funded by taxes, and would therefore need to be halted immediately once we hit the debt ceiling.

    EDIT: Oops, actually it's 43%, making it even MORE unfeasible to actually pare down our spending in the next four weeks and stay beneath the current debt ceiling.

    2011 United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Government Spending Details: Federal State Local for 2011 - Charts
    Oh, you are referring to the deficit.

    In that case, all of your previous comments using that number are total FAIL and it is obvious you donít have a clue.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Obama Bypassing Congress on Debt Limit is 'Crazy Talk'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The president ALSO doesn't have the authority to stop funding programs and agencies which the law mandates that he fund. So he doesn't have any choice but to violate one law or the other. By not raising the debt ceiling, Congress will essentially FORCE him to prioritize which of their laws should be enforced and which should not.
    A budget allocation is not equivalent in any form to the US Constitution. The President does not have the Constitutional power to raise the debt limit. End of story.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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