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Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

MrV - It doesn't matter. The investigation concluded it was not caused by cocaine use.

Please. People of your ilk would like to see women have fewer rights than a clump of a dozen cells. You're perfectly ok with convicting a woman of murder for a stillbirth even with NO evidence it was caused by any activity of the woman. In the case of the third woman, there was no evidence of any chemical use at all. You're also ok with locking away the mentally ill.

EDIT: What? That's an entirely different woman from the one in the OP. She even lives in a different state.

Excuse me? People if my "Ilk"? What's that supposed to mean? I'm a "Conservative" so you think I have some neanderthal view that women are inferior? That women deserve to be treated as lesser humans? You base this on what? That I don't support abortion?
I'm flat out ****ing offended by your ignorance frankly.

Oh, and PS, that is the same woman, and YES she admitted ina court of LAW she was GUILTY of using Meth. Or can't you read?

In Alabama at least 40 cases have been brought under the state's "chemical endangerment" law. Introduced in 2006, the statute was designed to protect children whose parents were cooking methamphetamine in the home and thus putting their children at risk from inhaling the fumes.
Amanda Kimbrough is one of the women who have been ensnared as a result of the law being applied in a wholly different way. During her pregnancy her foetus was diagnosed with possible Down's syndrome and doctors suggested she consider a termination, which Kimbrough declined as she is not in favour of abortion.

The baby was delivered by caesarean section prematurely in April 2008 and died 19 minutes after birth.

Six months later Kimbrough was arrested at home and charged with "chemical endangerment" of her unborn child on the grounds that she had taken drugs during the pregnancy – a claim she has denied.

"That shocked me, it really did," Kimbrough said. "I had lost a child, that was enough."

She now awaits an appeal ruling from the higher courts in Alabama, which if she loses will see her begin a 10-year sentence behind bars. "I'm just living one day at a time, looking after my three other kids," she said. "They say I'm a criminal, how do I answer that? I'm a good mother.
Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges | World news | The Guardian



Amanda Helaine Borden Kimbrough entered the plea Wednesday. She accepted a plea deal after prosecutors finished presenting their case during her trial in Colbert County, the TimesDaily in Florence reported.

A judge sentenced the 30-year-old Russellville woman to 10 years in prison on a charge of chemical endangerment of a child. She could have been sentenced to life imprisonment without the plea deal.

Timmy Wayne Kimbrough lived for only a few minutes after being born in April 2008.
Northwest Alabama woman pleads guilty in death of her baby by using meth before his birth | al.com
 
Whoa, dude. Watch out or you'll have a stroke.

I'd still like you to explain to me how punishing people for having an illness is ok, how exactly it is that you aren't giving priority to a clump of cells over an actual human being, etc. They're your beliefs, man. If you're insulted then defend something less insulting.
 
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Whoa, dude. Watch out or you'll have a stroke.

I'd still like you to explain to me how punishing people for having an illness is ok, how exactly it is that you aren't giving priority to a clump of cells over an actual human being, etc. They're your beliefs, man. If you're insulted then defend something less insulting.

I'm not gonna have a stroke, sometimes when people makes claims on this board that they're right, even in the face of overwhelming evidence... you have to make it VERY clear to them. I only do that for special cases of illiteracy.

However, I'm not going to waste much more effort with someone with ignorant ass beliefs casting aspersions on me because she's got no tally no clue, just this misguided, arrogant and frankly pathetic opinion of myself based on nothing more then poppycock!
 
'K. You've gotten bigger things wrong. For example, the entire rest of this debate. You've still failed to explain what makes this not heinous. So suddenly you won't "waste your time" when it gets down to you showing why this isn't a totally messed up misuse of the law in the first place?

Like I said, if you don't want to feel insulted by people repeating back your beliefs to you minus the feathers and glitter, stop defending indefensibly wrong things. Screaming and hurling ad hom's in place of arguments doesn't help you look any more defensible, either.
 
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Moderator's Warning:
Calm it down or people will be removed from the discussion.
 
'K. You've gotten bigger things wrong. For example, the entire rest of this debate. You've still failed to explain what makes this not heinous. So suddenly you won't "waste your time" when it gets down to you showing why this isn't a totally messed up misuse of the law in the first place?

Like I said, if you don't want to feel insulted by people repeating back your beliefs to you minus the feathers and glitter, stop defending indefensibly wrong things. Screaming and hurling ad hom's in place of arguments doesn't help you look any more defensible, either.

I've gotten nothing wrong in this thread. Using Cocaine, while pregnant... IS STUPID. Oh, and there is a law out there that says if you use illegal drugs while pregnant and your child dies you could be held liable? Double stupid on you for doing them. Taking Rat Poison to commit suicide in a spur of the moment act of stupid is... STUPID. And as for "Amanda from Alabama", she plead guilty to using METH while pregnant.

I'm not the one defending druggies and stupid people taking rat poison.

Also, just because one does not support abortion, and it's true, in most cases aside rape, incest and life of the mother/child I AM against abortion has ZERO bearing on how I believe women should be treated or that they somehow are less deserving of rights. I RESPECT the opinion, even if I disagree with it, of those that support abortion rights. You need to reassess your world view lady, big time.
 
Solution is to drug test mothers at OBGYN visits during their pregnancy. Then you'll have evidence towards a charge of chemical endangerment if you need it.
 
I've gotten nothing wrong in this thread. Using Cocaine, while pregnant... IS STUPID. Oh, and there is a law out there that says if you use illegal drugs while pregnant and your child dies you could be held liable? Double stupid on you for doing them. Taking Rat Poison to commit suicide in a spur of the moment act of stupid is... STUPID. And as for "Amanda from Alabama", she plead guilty to using METH while pregnant.

I'm not the one defending druggies and stupid people taking rat poison.

Also, just because one does not support abortion, and it's true, in most cases aside rape, incest and life of the mother/child I AM against abortion has ZERO bearing on how I believe women should be treated or that they somehow are less deserving of rights. I RESPECT the opinion, even if I disagree with it, of those that support abortion rights. You need to reassess your world view lady, big time.

...Says the guy who would like to return to the Dark Ages practice of tormenting the mentally ill. And doesn't see how removing a right means... removing a right. I almost can't even take you seriously.
 
...Says the guy who would like to return to the Dark Ages practice of tormenting the mentally ill
WHAT? WHAT?? WHAT??? Where do you get this **** from? Your ass?
. And doesn't see how removing a right means... removing a right.
Have you considered that I believe an unborn child is an innocent whose rights are being deprived and they are being killed?
I almost can't even take you seriously.
I think I can live with that prospect, considering the source.
 
Moderator's Warning:
You both have had time now to see the previous mod box. Continue and be gone from this thread.
 
So you don't see how sending extremely ill people to prison is rather tormenting? Really?

You do, though, believe women are less deserving of rights. You simply do. That's what your whole stance is about. And you base that on a fallacious and wobbly foundation for which the only argument is appeal to emotion (specifically, appeal to emotion of someone who also happens to have a sub-par understanding of biology among other things). Paint it however you like, but that's what it is. Your only response seems to be mindless all-caps... again.
 
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The slippery slope has already happened. There is no evidence one of the women did anything to endanger the fetus at all. She is being charged with it anyway out of the clear blue sky.

I don't find this complicated at all. A fetus does not have the same rights as a person. No logical argument supports that conclusion. But even if that weren't the case, even if you for some reason think a fetus has more rights than a woman, they're already charging women who did nothing wrong.

And in this case, a woman who was willing to have a child with Downs, despite her doctors suggesting she abort. She's your poster-child. And now you want to send her to jail? For having the audacity to miscarry?

That's the ironic part-she didn't have an abortion when encouraged to do so by her doctors. The prolifers quickly turn on their own kind, don't they?
 
I've gotten nothing wrong in this thread. Using Cocaine, while pregnant... IS STUPID. Oh, and there is a law out there that says if you use illegal drugs while pregnant and your child dies you could be held liable? Double stupid on you for doing them. Taking Rat Poison to commit suicide in a spur of the moment act of stupid is... STUPID. And as for "Amanda from Alabama", she plead guilty to using METH while pregnant.

I'm not the one defending druggies and stupid people taking rat poison.

Also, just because one does not support abortion, and it's true, in most cases aside rape, incest and life of the mother/child I AM against abortion has ZERO bearing on how I believe women should be treated or that they somehow are less deserving of rights. I RESPECT the opinion, even if I disagree with it, of those that support abortion rights. You need to reassess your world view lady, big time.

And how do they know for sure if cocaine was used during the pregnancy? It only stays in the system for two days.
 
Some laws and penalties in Mississippi:

Reckless Driving - between 5 and 500 $ fine
DUI - up to 48 hours jail, 250 to 1000 $ fine, 90 days drivers license suspended
Manslaughter - between 1 and 20 years

This case: woman faces life in prison.

Any one see anything wrong here?
 
And in this case, a woman who was willing to have a child with Downs, despite her doctors suggesting she abort. She's your poster-child. And now you want to send her to jail? For having the audacity to miscarry?

Not even miscarry. Live birth to 19 minutes. Bastards.
 
Why stop there Cap'n? Why not charge women eating at Mc Donalds with endangerment? How about women who are not following an ideal diet or exercise regime?

After all we know that lack of vitamin B causes neural tube deficits

My daughter hasn't been taking her prenatals because they make the nausea worse. I better give her a call. :(
 
Are you aware that the most prolific abortionist on the planet is Mother Nature? Between about 50-70% of conceptions do not implant or abort naturally in the first few days. Of those that survive 20% (approx) will abort naturally (abortion is the correct medical term for miscarriage. So what are you suggesting - that every woman who has a positive pregnancy test is charged with murder if she does not produce a healthy live infant in 9 months time?

"cough"... 9 months... "cough"

She was talking about elephants, dammit! Try and stay on topic, would you. Sheesh! Men. >.>
 
My favorite paragraph, and one that I doubt the bastards considered.

Perhaps the most persuasive argument put forward in the amicus briefs is that if such prosecutions were designed to protect the unborn child, then they would be utterly counter-productive: "Prosecuting women and girls for continuing [a pregnancy] to term despite a drug addiction encourages them to terminate wanted pregnancies to avoid criminal penalties. The state could not have intended this result when it adopted the homicide statute."
 
Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there iso evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child,

please notice, there is no questioning of the drug use, only saying there is no evidence that the drug abuse caused the baby's death . Basically they seem to be saying that there was indeed proof of drug use. So the question becomes, is a death that is either caused directly or indirectly for the commission of a crime, something someone can be charged with? (having and using cocaine is still a crime in the US) I can give two examples, someone robs a store and the clerk in that store dies during the robbery of a heart attack, no intent has to be proven, that person will be charged with his death. A person leaves a bar ( legally drunk) and has an accident that kills another, again no intent has to be proven he will be charged in their death. To my thinking the only question in this case is when is a baby considered to be alive. That is above my pay grade so I'll leave that to the rest of you

Bei Bei Shuai, 34, has spent the past three months in a prison cell in Indianapolis charged with murdering her baby. On 23 December she tried to commit suicide by taking rat poison after her boyfriend abandoned her.
Shuai was rushed to hospital and survived, but she was 33 weeks pregnant and her baby, to whom she gave birth a week after the suicide attempt and whom she called Angel, died after four days. In March Shuai was charged with murder and attempted foeticide

In this case .. the baby “lived” for four days … so I don't see how the claim can be made for accidental abortion. Is a person mentally disturbed for attempting to take her own life? That I don't think anyone can say with any degree of certainty. But again the article leaves out to much, how did she make it to the hospital to be saved ? Did she take enough to kill herself? Who found her and why was she found? Did she chicken out at the last moment and try an save herself? Did she take a dosage that wouldn't have killed her ? I think all those questions need to be answered
Amanda Kimbrough is one of the women who have been ensnared as a result of the law being applied in a wholly different way. During her pregnancy her foetus was diagnosed with possible Down's syndrome and doctors suggested she consider a termination, which Kimbrough declined as she is not in favour of abortion.
The baby was delivered by caesarean section prematurely in April 2008 and died 19 minutes after birth.
Six months later Kimbrough was arrested at home and charged with "chemical endangerment" of her unborn child on the grounds that she had taken drugs during the pregnancy – a claim she has denied.
She now awaits an appeal ruling from the higher courts in Alabama, which if she loses will see her begin a 10-year sentence behind bars.
This one the article is leaving something out .. and I wonder why .. it says she is awaiting an appeal … before beginning her 10 year sentence … wouldn't that tell someone she has already been to trail and found guilty ? We don't know all the facts in this case either, but it appears there is much more to this then we are learning from the article.

I personally feel the reason for the article was to create the outrage with people that it has created right here in this thread ... without showing anything close to that facts of the cases ... We have seen this done before, only to have the articles to be proven to be non factual in everything they are saying, there are just to many question that are left unanswered in this one.
 
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Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges | World news | The Guardian



Seriously what is wrong with parts of America these days? Throwing women in jail for live for having still births or premature births? Not even the freaking Taliban and Iranian mullahs do this!

They weren't thrown in jail, just for having stillborn kids. :doh

They were arrested for "chemical endangerment" of their child.
Please stop hysterical comparisons to Muslim extremism.
 
I'm right there with her. I hope she can take it easy. Does she have to work while pregnant? My husband told me to quit my part time job.

She does. Her older two are one day shy of 13 months apart. I am glad you were able to quit. Are you enjoying it, or going mildly stir-crazy? :)
 
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