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Thread: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    There's nothing to agree with. You need to educate yourself about mental illness. It's really that simple. Mental illness is well-established as a physiological disease. It can be terminal, like any other serious disease. This is your own unwillingness to try to understand it.

    Suicide bombers are, like most brainwashed fanatics, kept so ignorant that they can be taught to believe anything. Extreme and misguided ignorance can cause similar-looking behaviors, but it is radically different than not wanting to live. Though personally I'd also be in favor of sentencing the person reasponsible for brainwashing them.
    I’m married to a shrink. There is a DSM IV in my book case 3 feet away from me. I know that doesn’t make ME an expert but I think I’m a bit more educated on mental illness than the average person.

    Look, I could rattle off two dozen reasons a person would take their own lives even though they aren’t mentally ill. Trust me, I’ve been in some situations where I would have taken my own life rather than allow a particular enemy to capture me and I’m sane now and would have been had I been forced to make that choice.

    You obviously have a very big heart and that is extremely admirable, life however isn’t always as simple as your feelings tell you it is or should be.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    But it still wasn't elective. None of these cases show intent to abort. One was a drug addict, one was severely ill, and one doesn't appear to have done anything at all. I still don't get how this works.

    I suspect that's because it's not supposed to make sense. It's supposed to push anti-choice laws.
    Oh, no doubt. That's why I'm not comfortable with anything less than clear and irrefutable proof of said intent.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I’m married to a shrink. There is a DSM IV in my book case 3 feet away from me. I know that doesn’t make ME an expert but I think I’m a bit more educated on mental illness than the average person.

    Look, I could rattle off two dozen reasons a person would take their own lives even though they aren’t mentally ill. Trust me, I’ve been in some situations where I would have taken my own life rather than allow a particular enemy to capture me and I’m sane now and would have been had I been forced to make that choice.

    You obviously have a very big heart and that is extremely admirable, life however isn’t always as simple as your feelings tell you it is or should be.
    Facing two alternative options for how you are going to die and picking one is also not the same as being suicidal. Though I am sorry you had to go through that. "Suicidal" as a verb implies intent, typically due to on-going emotional pain. That means mental illness.

    Someone who freaks out over being dumped and drinks a bottle of poison is mentally ill. Someone who veers off a road to dig themselves into a tree is mentally ill.

    Someone who must pick one of two ways to die is not. Someone who has been kept ignorant of basically the life process is not either. Suicide may apply, but suicidal does not.

    I happened to have studied psychology a bit - not as much as your wife I'm sure - but enough that I can guess what was probably going on with the woman in that article. I also spend a lot of time letting people talk. I'm a writer. I like to do so. If the person is able to articulate it well enough (I know someone who was struck dumb due to the depth of her depression for several days), the world they live in is obviously not the same world the rest of us live in. It is obviously a disease. It is obviously something that attacks them. Even if here in reality we may see them attack us.

    It's not as simple as writing off people who are sick so you can have the comfort of a black-and-white innocent-guilty decision either.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 07-03-11 at 09:39 AM.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    I am talking from experience in Queensland Aust. Abortion is illegal here and women who are substance abusers HAVE to be reported to DOCS (Dept of Child Services) This does not mean that they will automatically go to jail - but they may be counselled and encouraged to give up - AND the child might be fostered out at birth
    This is interesting. I’m a bit surprised to learn that abortion isn’t legal everywhere in Australia. If abortion wasn’t legal here, I would probably support certain situations where the child is fostered out at birth rather than leaving it under the care of an addict.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I also think that the father shouldn’t be forced to pay child support if he has no say in whether the mother aborts or not.
    So because a guy is a piece of **** father he shouldn't have to support the life he made? You would much rather more of your tax dollars would be used so these assholes get a free space?
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    MrV - It doesn't matter. The investigation concluded it was not caused by cocaine use.

    Please. People of your ilk would like to see women have fewer rights than a clump of a dozen cells. You're perfectly ok with convicting a woman of murder for a stillbirth even with NO evidence it was caused by any activity of the woman. In the case of the third woman, there was no evidence of any chemical use at all. You're also ok with locking away the mentally ill.

    EDIT: What? That's an entirely different woman from the one in the OP. She even lives in a different state.
    Excuse me? People if my "Ilk"? What's that supposed to mean? I'm a "Conservative" so you think I have some neanderthal view that women are inferior? That women deserve to be treated as lesser humans? You base this on what? That I don't support abortion?
    I'm flat out ****ing offended by your ignorance frankly.

    Oh, and PS, that is the same woman, and YES she admitted ina court of LAW she was GUILTY of using Meth. Or can't you read?

    In Alabama at least 40 cases have been brought under the state's "chemical endangerment" law. Introduced in 2006, the statute was designed to protect children whose parents were cooking methamphetamine in the home and thus putting their children at risk from inhaling the fumes.
    Amanda Kimbrough is one of the women who have been ensnared as a result of the law being applied in a wholly different way. During her pregnancy her foetus was diagnosed with possible Down's syndrome and doctors suggested she consider a termination, which Kimbrough declined as she is not in favour of abortion.

    The baby was delivered by caesarean section prematurely in April 2008 and died 19 minutes after birth.

    Six months later Kimbrough was arrested at home and charged with "chemical endangerment" of her unborn child on the grounds that she had taken drugs during the pregnancy – a claim she has denied.

    "That shocked me, it really did," Kimbrough said. "I had lost a child, that was enough."

    She now awaits an appeal ruling from the higher courts in Alabama, which if she loses will see her begin a 10-year sentence behind bars. "I'm just living one day at a time, looking after my three other kids," she said. "They say I'm a criminal, how do I answer that? I'm a good mother.
    Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges | World news | The Guardian



    Amanda Helaine Borden Kimbrough entered the plea Wednesday. She accepted a plea deal after prosecutors finished presenting their case during her trial in Colbert County, the TimesDaily in Florence reported.

    A judge sentenced the 30-year-old Russellville woman to 10 years in prison on a charge of chemical endangerment of a child. She could have been sentenced to life imprisonment without the plea deal.

    Timmy Wayne Kimbrough lived for only a few minutes after being born in April 2008.
    Northwest Alabama woman pleads guilty in death of her baby by using meth before his birth | al.com
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Whoa, dude. Watch out or you'll have a stroke.

    I'd still like you to explain to me how punishing people for having an illness is ok, how exactly it is that you aren't giving priority to a clump of cells over an actual human being, etc. They're your beliefs, man. If you're insulted then defend something less insulting.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 07-03-11 at 10:08 AM.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Whoa, dude. Watch out or you'll have a stroke.

    I'd still like you to explain to me how punishing people for having an illness is ok, how exactly it is that you aren't giving priority to a clump of cells over an actual human being, etc. They're your beliefs, man. If you're insulted then defend something less insulting.
    I'm not gonna have a stroke, sometimes when people makes claims on this board that they're right, even in the face of overwhelming evidence... you have to make it VERY clear to them. I only do that for special cases of illiteracy.

    However, I'm not going to waste much more effort with someone with ignorant ass beliefs casting aspersions on me because she's got no tally no clue, just this misguided, arrogant and frankly pathetic opinion of myself based on nothing more then poppycock!
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    'K. You've gotten bigger things wrong. For example, the entire rest of this debate. You've still failed to explain what makes this not heinous. So suddenly you won't "waste your time" when it gets down to you showing why this isn't a totally messed up misuse of the law in the first place?

    Like I said, if you don't want to feel insulted by people repeating back your beliefs to you minus the feathers and glitter, stop defending indefensibly wrong things. Screaming and hurling ad hom's in place of arguments doesn't help you look any more defensible, either.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 07-03-11 at 10:22 AM.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Moderator's Warning:
    Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder chargesCalm it down or people will be removed from the discussion.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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