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Thread: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

  1. #61
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by stelz View Post
    From what I see in this article, even if a pregnant woman is NOT doing drugs and she happens to miscarry, she's in danger of going to prison for 10 years (might as well be dead) and if she's got kids already they could easily end up bouncing around in foster care going through who knows what.

    That's right up there with the Taliban AFAIC.
    We already cover this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Stop overreacting. There is a lot of gray area do this particular issue. I'm not sure of the exact legal terminology, but I think some sort or reasonable care would be expected. For example, drinking caffeine is different than smoking crack.
    Overreacting? Moi???

    (sticks nose in air in high dudgeon)

    Cap old dear - have you any idea of how many Teratogens there are out there?
    Teratogens - Toxipedia
    Teratogenic Substances: Toxicology

    This is of course inclusive of one of the more pervasive teratogens - alcohol, which causes Foetal Alcohol Syndrome
    Last edited by bowerbird; 07-03-11 at 08:46 AM.
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I guess I need to revise my position a bit to remain consistent. If I believe a fetus becomes human at whatever point (I still don’t know when that is), it would be inconsistent of me to apply the same protections to the fetus as a human.

    However, because I do believe that there is a point where the fetus becomes a child while it is still in the womb, I think that criminal charges against women who attempt to take their own lives or take drugs while pregnant/carrying a human.

    You see, if I decide to kill myself by driving my car over a cliff with my 5 year old son in it, it isn’t just a suicide attempt; I’m attempting to murder him as well.

    If I pull over to the side of the road and start smoking crack with the windows rolled up and my 5 year old is in the car with me; that is child endangerment.
    I've made my point that I think existing law covers it, making laws for fetuses is grandstanding, etc. But I really gotta talk about the bolded part, here.

    Do you understand what suicide means? I mean, I know you do literally. It means you end your life intentionally. But do you know what that means?

    That is a complete defiance of every single rational thought or instinct a human being could ever have.

    Suicide is a terminal outcome of a disease. It is irrational. It is performed by people who are extremely sick. As sick as anyone with cancer.

    Your hypothetical? That's what the insanity plea is for. And don't think that's an "easy way out." Pleaing insanity is an "easy way" into spending a very long time, if not life, in an institution. And many of them are worse than any jail. But that's the truth of the matter. Someone who would do that is insane. Which means they are sick. Literally, physically sick. How it manifests is irrelevant.

    Suicide is a result of complete insanity. Disease of the mind. Do you understand that? Do you really think we should punish sick people?
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 07-03-11 at 08:49 AM.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I guess I need to revise my position a bit to remain consistent. If I believe a fetus becomes human at whatever point (I still donít know when that is), it would be inconsistent of me to apply the same protections to the fetus as a human.

    However, because I do believe that there is a point where the fetus becomes a child while it is still in the womb, I think that criminal charges should be filed against women who attempt to take their own lives or take drugs while pregnant/carrying a human.

    You see, if I decide to kill myself by driving my car over a cliff with my 5 year old son in it, it isnít just a suicide attempt; Iím attempting to murder him as well.

    If I pull over to the side of the road and start smoking crack with the windows rolled up and my 5 year old is in the car with me; that is child endangerment.
    It is not uncommon for pregnant women to be charged with child endangerment and here we are mandated to report that to the Department of Child Services. But does that mean we will jail them? NO!
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    I've made my point that I think existing law covers it, making laws for fetuses is grandstanding, etc. But I really gotta talk about the bolded part, here.

    Do you understand what suicide means? I mean, I know you do literally. It means you end your life intentionally. But do you know what that means?

    That is a complete defiance of every single rational thought or instinct a human being could ever have.

    Suicide is a terminal outcome of a disease. It is irrational. It is performed by people who are extremely sick. As sick as anyone with cancer.

    Your hypothetical? That's what the insanity plea is for. And don't think that's an "easy way out." Pleaing insanity is an "easy way" into spending a very long time, if not life, in an institution. And many of them are worse than any jail. But that's the truth of the matter. Someone who would do that is insane. Which means they are sick. Literally, physically sick. How it manifests is irrelevant.

    Suicide is a result of complete insanity. Disease of the mind. Do you understand that? Do you really think we should punish sick people?
    I don’t agree with your assessment of suicide but I do agree that suicide itself should not be a crime.

    However, if a suicide includes taking the life of another innocent person, that is murder. Sanity is for the courts to decide.

    If I walk into a crowd with a bomb strapped to me and it doesn’t explode when I attempt to set it off, that is still attempted murder even though I am trying to commit suicide.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  6. #66
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    Overreacting? Moi???

    (sticks nose in air in high dudgeon)

    Cap old dear - have you any idea of how many Teratogens there are out there?
    Teratogens - Toxipedia
    Teratogenic Substances: Toxicology

    This is of course inclusive of one of the more pervasive teratogens - alcohol, which causes Foetal Alcohol Syndrome
    Yeah, over reacting. Does one give a fetus fetal alcohol syndrome by having one glass of wine or by drinking significantly? This is why I said you were over reacting when you brought up eating at McDonalds, or following the right diet/exercise regime. There are degrees of problematic behavior.
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I don’t agree with your assessment of suicide but I do agree that suicide itself should not be a crime.

    However, if a suicide includes taking the life of another innocent person, that is murder. Sanity is for the courts to decide.

    If I walk into a crowd with a bomb strapped to me and it doesn’t explode when I attempt to set it off, that is still attempted murder even though I am trying to commit suicide.
    There's nothing to agree with. You need to educate yourself about mental illness. It's really that simple. Mental illness is well-established as a physiological disease. It can be terminal, like any other serious disease. This is your own unwillingness to try to understand it.

    Suicide bombers are, like most brainwashed fanatics, kept so ignorant that they can be taught to believe anything. Extreme and misguided ignorance can cause similar-looking behaviors, but it is radically different than not wanting to live. Though personally I'd also be in favor of sentencing the person reasponsible for brainwashing them.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 07-03-11 at 09:13 AM.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    It is not uncommon for pregnant women to be charged with child endangerment and here we are mandated to report that to the Department of Child Services. But does that mean we will jail them? NO!
    I don’t see how, under current law, one can justify arresting or jailing women who are pregnant considering the current law of the land.

    My personal preference on the issue though would be for the law to change so that past a certain point in the pregnancy, the fetus is considered a child in the eyes of the law and is given all of the rights and protections there under, even in circumstances such as suicide attempts, drug abuse, assaulting a child that is still in the womb, etc.

    Like CC said though, there are a lot of grey areas in this issue and my personal preference would probably be a logistical nightmare to enforce and would probably lead to horrible abuses by the avid pro-life crowd.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
    John F. Kennedy
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Yeah, over reacting. Does one give a fetus fetal alcohol syndrome by having one glass of wine or by drinking significantly? This is why I said you were over reacting when you brought up eating at McDonalds, or following the right diet/exercise regime. There are degrees of problematic behavior.
    While there ARE degrees of problematic behaviour it is still child endangerment when there is such clear evidence of the teratogenic effects of lack of an adequate diet. In fact there is MORE evidence supporting the severe teratogenic effects of lack of Folate and B12 than there is for Cocaine causing severe defects

    And what is the commonest reason for B 12 deficiency? Vegetarianism

    Watch out all you vege Mums to be!!


    But this is not even a "slippery slope" argument because the Camel is inside the tent and chewing on the drapes.

    The bottom line remains that the charges are disproportionate to the "crimes"
    Greenhouse gases: Any gas that, by an accident of chemistry, happens to absorb radiation of a type that the Earth, by an accident of history, would like to lose.
    The internet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhoea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.


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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I donít see how, under current law, one can justify arresting or jailing women who are pregnant considering the current law of the land.

    My personal preference on the issue though would be for the law to change so that past a certain point in the pregnancy, the fetus is considered a child in the eyes of the law and is given all of the rights and protections there under, even in circumstances such as suicide attempts, drug abuse, assaulting a child that is still in the womb, etc.

    Like CC said though, there are a lot of grey areas in this issue and my personal preference would probably be a logistical nightmare to enforce and would probably lead to horrible abuses by the avid pro-life crowd.
    I am talking from experience in Queensland Aust. Abortion is illegal here and women who are substance abusers HAVE to be reported to DOCS (Dept of Child Services) This does not mean that they will automatically go to jail - but they may be counselled and encouraged to give up - AND the child might be fostered out at birth
    Greenhouse gases: Any gas that, by an accident of chemistry, happens to absorb radiation of a type that the Earth, by an accident of history, would like to lose.
    The internet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhoea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.


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