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Thread: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    At least you are consistent. I would have to disagree with you though. While I do support limited abortion rights, I draw the line at late term abortions and I think the fetus should have all the rights and protections under the law that those of us who were born alive have in situations where the mother plans to give birth to the child.
    I see no reason for that. It isn't a person. A fetus prior to the final trimester doesn't pass most of the barometers for a life. And a fetus at the age when nearly all elective abortions occur doesn't pass any of them. It may be technically alive, but it is not A life. It is a part of the woman's body more than anything.

    As such, it should not have personhood under the law. There is no need for it other than anti-abortion grandstanding. Appropriate sentencing to protect society is perfectly achievable with existing laws, and a fetus quite simply isn't a person.

    I regard the late-term abortion debate as irrelevant. Even when it's legal, no one does it electively. Legislating the matter seems more symbolic to me than anything. Sure, go for it.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I also think that the father shouldn’t be forced to pay child support if he has no say in whether the mother aborts or not.
    Yup. I agree. I support women's choice. Which means I also support women owning responsibility for their choices.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    At least you are consistent. I would have to disagree with you though. While I do support limited abortion rights, I draw the line at late term abortions and I think the fetus should have all the rights and protections under the law that those of us who were born alive have in situations where the mother plans to give birth to the child.
    The VAST majority of late term abortions occur because Mother Nature can be a real bitch!! Sydromes like Cyclopia and anencephaly Edwards syndrome and many many more that will not survive birth for more than a few hours
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    This is shaky ground but here goes...Women want the sole decision on abortion, men, the fathers have no say. Ok fine, but the women have to take responsiblity for harm they do to the fathers child by using drugs and drinking rat poison etc.....Women cant have it both ways...be responsible for the decison on ending the life and take no responsiblity for the consequences of their actions....

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    This is shaky ground but here goes...Women want the sole decision on abortion, men, the fathers have no say. Ok fine, but the women have to take responsiblity for harm they do to the fathers child by using drugs and drinking rat poison etc.....Women cant have it both ways...be responsible for the decison on ending the life and take no responsiblity for the consequences of their actions....
    To me this argument fails at the beginning, but assuming I didn't think that and I accept your premise that a fetus is a person, this is absurd.

    It's legal to intentionally abort, but it should be punished as murder to accidentally abort? This is, of course, ignoring everything said before about women being accused with no evidence, punishing mental illness, yata yata ya...

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    This is really, really tricky and the potential for abuse is so clearly on display in all the cases mentioned in the article, I'm surprised anyone would be in favor of keeping these laws in the books. I guess justice and the truth mean absolutely squat to some people. These cases are so transparently the result of a specific agenda, only those who are part of that agenda would stand by and do nothing while obvious miscarriages of justice are underway. I find it utterly revolting.

    Here's the way I see it, unless there is clear intent on the mother's part to harm her viable fetus and irrefutable evidence that the death is the result of that intent, the woman should not be charged with a damn thing. A no-brainer, really.
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    I question the accuracy of your claim that Iran and/or the Taliban wouldnít lock a woman up for this. Abortion is illegal in Iran, except when the motherís life is in danger, and drug use is illegal too.
    From what I see in this article, even if a pregnant woman is NOT doing drugs and she happens to miscarry, she's in danger of going to prison for 10 years (might as well be dead) and if she's got kids already they could easily end up bouncing around in foster care going through who knows what.

    That's right up there with the Taliban AFAIC.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    To me this argument fails at the beginning, but assuming I didn't think that and I accept your premise that a fetus is a person, this is absurd.

    It's legal to intentionally abort, but it should be punished as murder to accidentally abort? This is, of course, ignoring everything said before about women being accused with no evidence, punishing mental illness, yata yata ya...
    The way I understand it, in all the cases in question, the death of the fetus occurred after the 24 week deadline for legal elective abortion. So, technically, at a time when elective abortion becomes illegal.
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    Why stop there Cap'n? Why not charge women eating at Mc Donalds with endangerment? How about women who are not following an ideal diet or exercise regime?

    After all we know that lack of vitamin B causes neural tube deficits
    Stop overreacting. There is a lot of gray area do this particular issue. I'm not sure of the exact legal terminology, but I think some sort or reasonable care would be expected. For example, drinking caffeine is different than smoking crack.
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    I see no reason for that. It isn't a person. A fetus prior to the final trimester doesn't pass most of the barometers for a life. And a fetus at the age when nearly all elective abortions occur doesn't pass any of them. It may be technically alive, but it is not A life. It is a part of the woman's body more than anything.

    As such, it should not have personhood under the law. There is no need for it other than anti-abortion grandstanding. Appropriate sentencing to protect society is perfectly achievable with existing laws, and a fetus quite simply isn't a person.

    I regard the late-term abortion debate as irrelevant. Even when it's legal, no one does it electively. Legislating the matter seems more symbolic to me than anything. Sure, go for it.

    EDIT:



    Yup. I agree. I support women's choice. Which means I also support women owning responsibility for their choices.
    I guess I need to revise my position a bit to remain consistent. If I believe a fetus becomes human at whatever point (I still donít know when that is), it would be inconsistent of me to apply the same protections to the fetus as a human.

    However, because I do believe that there is a point where the fetus becomes a child while it is still in the womb, I think that criminal charges should be filed against women who attempt to take their own lives or take drugs while pregnant/carrying a human.

    You see, if I decide to kill myself by driving my car over a cliff with my 5 year old son in it, it isnít just a suicide attempt; Iím attempting to murder him as well.

    If I pull over to the side of the road and start smoking crack with the windows rolled up and my 5 year old is in the car with me; that is child endangerment.
    Last edited by GPS_Flex; 07-03-11 at 08:44 AM.

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    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    The way I understand it, in all the cases in question, the death of the fetus occurred after the 24 week deadline for legal elective abortion. So, technically, at a time when elective abortion becomes illegal.
    But it still wasn't elective. None of these cases show intent to abort. One was a drug addict, one was severely ill, and one doesn't appear to have done anything at all. I still don't get how this works.

    I suspect that's because it's not supposed to make sense. It's supposed to push anti-choice laws.

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