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Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

GPS_Flex said:
At least you are consistent. I would have to disagree with you though. While I do support limited abortion rights, I draw the line at late term abortions and I think the fetus should have all the rights and protections under the law that those of us who were born alive have in situations where the mother plans to give birth to the child.
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I see no reason for that. It isn't a person. A fetus prior to the final trimester doesn't pass most of the barometers for a life. And a fetus at the age when nearly all elective abortions occur doesn't pass any of them. It may be technically alive, but it is not A life. It is a part of the woman's body more than anything.

As such, it should not have personhood under the law. There is no need for it other than anti-abortion grandstanding. Appropriate sentencing to protect society is perfectly achievable with existing laws, and a fetus quite simply isn't a person.

I regard the late-term abortion debate as irrelevant. Even when it's legal, no one does it electively. Legislating the matter seems more symbolic to me than anything. Sure, go for it.

EDIT:

GPS_Flex said:
I also think that the father shouldn’t be forced to pay child support if he has no say in whether the mother aborts or not.
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Yup. I agree. I support women's choice. Which means I also support women owning responsibility for their choices.
 
GPS_Flex said:
At least you are consistent. I would have to disagree with you though. While I do support limited abortion rights, I draw the line at late term abortions and I think the fetus should have all the rights and protections under the law that those of us who were born alive have in situations where the mother plans to give birth to the child.
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The VAST majority of late term abortions occur because Mother Nature can be a real bitch!! Sydromes like Cyclopia and anencephaly Edwards syndrome and many many more that will not survive birth for more than a few hours
 
This is shaky ground but here goes...Women want the sole decision on abortion, men, the fathers have no say. Ok fine, but the women have to take responsiblity for harm they do to the fathers child by using drugs and drinking rat poison etc.....Women cant have it both ways...be responsible for the decison on ending the life and take no responsiblity for the consequences of their actions....
 
lpast said:
This is shaky ground but here goes...Women want the sole decision on abortion, men, the fathers have no say. Ok fine, but the women have to take responsiblity for harm they do to the fathers child by using drugs and drinking rat poison etc.....Women cant have it both ways...be responsible for the decison on ending the life and take no responsiblity for the consequences of their actions....
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To me this argument fails at the beginning, but assuming I didn't think that and I accept your premise that a fetus is a person, this is absurd.

It's legal to intentionally abort, but it should be punished as murder to accidentally abort? This is, of course, ignoring everything said before about women being accused with no evidence, punishing mental illness, yata yata ya...
 
This is really, really tricky and the potential for abuse is so clearly on display in all the cases mentioned in the article, I'm surprised anyone would be in favor of keeping these laws in the books. I guess justice and the truth mean absolutely squat to some people. These cases are so transparently the result of a specific agenda, only those who are part of that agenda would stand by and do nothing while obvious miscarriages of justice are underway. I find it utterly revolting.

Here's the way I see it, unless there is clear intent on the mother's part to harm her viable fetus and irrefutable evidence that the death is the result of that intent, the woman should not be charged with a damn thing. A no-brainer, really.
 
GPS_Flex said:
I question the accuracy of your claim that Iran and/or the Taliban wouldn’t lock a woman up for this. Abortion is illegal in Iran, except when the mother’s life is in danger, and drug use is illegal too.
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From what I see in this article, even if a pregnant woman is NOT doing drugs and she happens to miscarry, she's in danger of going to prison for 10 years (might as well be dead) and if she's got kids already they could easily end up bouncing around in foster care going through who knows what.

That's right up there with the Taliban AFAIC.
 
MistressNomad said:
To me this argument fails at the beginning, but assuming I didn't think that and I accept your premise that a fetus is a person, this is absurd.

It's legal to intentionally abort, but it should be punished as murder to accidentally abort? This is, of course, ignoring everything said before about women being accused with no evidence, punishing mental illness, yata yata ya...
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The way I understand it, in all the cases in question, the death of the fetus occurred after the 24 week deadline for legal elective abortion. So, technically, at a time when elective abortion becomes illegal.
 
bowerbird said:
Why stop there Cap'n? Why not charge women eating at Mc Donalds with endangerment? How about women who are not following an ideal diet or exercise regime?

After all we know that lack of vitamin B causes neural tube deficits
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Stop overreacting. There is a lot of gray area do this particular issue. I'm not sure of the exact legal terminology, but I think some sort or reasonable care would be expected. For example, drinking caffeine is different than smoking crack.
 
MistressNomad said:
I see no reason for that. It isn't a person. A fetus prior to the final trimester doesn't pass most of the barometers for a life. And a fetus at the age when nearly all elective abortions occur doesn't pass any of them. It may be technically alive, but it is not A life. It is a part of the woman's body more than anything.

As such, it should not have personhood under the law. There is no need for it other than anti-abortion grandstanding. Appropriate sentencing to protect society is perfectly achievable with existing laws, and a fetus quite simply isn't a person.

I regard the late-term abortion debate as irrelevant. Even when it's legal, no one does it electively. Legislating the matter seems more symbolic to me than anything. Sure, go for it.

EDIT:



Yup. I agree. I support women's choice. Which means I also support women owning responsibility for their choices.
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I guess I need to revise my position a bit to remain consistent. If I believe a fetus becomes human at whatever point (I still don’t know when that is), it would be inconsistent of me to apply the same protections to the fetus as a human.

However, because I do believe that there is a point where the fetus becomes a child while it is still in the womb, I think that criminal charges should be filed against women who attempt to take their own lives or take drugs while pregnant/carrying a human.

You see, if I decide to kill myself by driving my car over a cliff with my 5 year old son in it, it isn’t just a suicide attempt; I’m attempting to murder him as well.

If I pull over to the side of the road and start smoking crack with the windows rolled up and my 5 year old is in the car with me; that is child endangerment.
 
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Arcana XV said:
The way I understand it, in all the cases in question, the death of the fetus occurred after the 24 week deadline for legal elective abortion. So, technically, at a time when elective abortion becomes illegal.
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But it still wasn't elective. None of these cases show intent to abort. One was a drug addict, one was severely ill, and one doesn't appear to have done anything at all. I still don't get how this works.

I suspect that's because it's not supposed to make sense. It's supposed to push anti-choice laws.
 
stelz said:
From what I see in this article, even if a pregnant woman is NOT doing drugs and she happens to miscarry, she's in danger of going to prison for 10 years (might as well be dead) and if she's got kids already they could easily end up bouncing around in foster care going through who knows what.

That's right up there with the Taliban AFAIC.
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We already cover this.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Stop overreacting. There is a lot of gray area do this particular issue. I'm not sure of the exact legal terminology, but I think some sort or reasonable care would be expected. For example, drinking caffeine is different than smoking crack.
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Overreacting? Moi???

(sticks nose in air in high dudgeon)

Cap old dear - have you any idea of how many Teratogens there are out there?
Teratogens - Toxipedia
Teratogenic Substances: Toxicology

This is of course inclusive of one of the more pervasive teratogens - alcohol, which causes Foetal Alcohol Syndrome
 
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GPS_Flex said:
I guess I need to revise my position a bit to remain consistent. If I believe a fetus becomes human at whatever point (I still don’t know when that is), it would be inconsistent of me to apply the same protections to the fetus as a human.

However, because I do believe that there is a point where the fetus becomes a child while it is still in the womb, I think that criminal charges against women who attempt to take their own lives or take drugs while pregnant/carrying a human.

You see, if I decide to kill myself by driving my car over a cliff with my 5 year old son in it, it isn’t just a suicide attempt; I’m attempting to murder him as well.

If I pull over to the side of the road and start smoking crack with the windows rolled up and my 5 year old is in the car with me; that is child endangerment.
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I've made my point that I think existing law covers it, making laws for fetuses is grandstanding, etc. But I really gotta talk about the bolded part, here.

Do you understand what suicide means? I mean, I know you do literally. It means you end your life intentionally. But do you know what that means?

That is a complete defiance of every single rational thought or instinct a human being could ever have.

Suicide is a terminal outcome of a disease. It is irrational. It is performed by people who are extremely sick. As sick as anyone with cancer.

Your hypothetical? That's what the insanity plea is for. And don't think that's an "easy way out." Pleaing insanity is an "easy way" into spending a very long time, if not life, in an institution. And many of them are worse than any jail. But that's the truth of the matter. Someone who would do that is insane. Which means they are sick. Literally, physically sick. How it manifests is irrelevant.

Suicide is a result of complete insanity. Disease of the mind. Do you understand that? Do you really think we should punish sick people?
 
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GPS_Flex said:
I guess I need to revise my position a bit to remain consistent. If I believe a fetus becomes human at whatever point (I still don’t know when that is), it would be inconsistent of me to apply the same protections to the fetus as a human.

However, because I do believe that there is a point where the fetus becomes a child while it is still in the womb, I think that criminal charges should be filed against women who attempt to take their own lives or take drugs while pregnant/carrying a human.

You see, if I decide to kill myself by driving my car over a cliff with my 5 year old son in it, it isn’t just a suicide attempt; I’m attempting to murder him as well.

If I pull over to the side of the road and start smoking crack with the windows rolled up and my 5 year old is in the car with me; that is child endangerment.
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It is not uncommon for pregnant women to be charged with child endangerment and here we are mandated to report that to the Department of Child Services. But does that mean we will jail them? NO!
 
MistressNomad said:
I've made my point that I think existing law covers it, making laws for fetuses is grandstanding, etc. But I really gotta talk about the bolded part, here.

Do you understand what suicide means? I mean, I know you do literally. It means you end your life intentionally. But do you know what that means?

That is a complete defiance of every single rational thought or instinct a human being could ever have.

Suicide is a terminal outcome of a disease. It is irrational. It is performed by people who are extremely sick. As sick as anyone with cancer.

Your hypothetical? That's what the insanity plea is for. And don't think that's an "easy way out." Pleaing insanity is an "easy way" into spending a very long time, if not life, in an institution. And many of them are worse than any jail. But that's the truth of the matter. Someone who would do that is insane. Which means they are sick. Literally, physically sick. How it manifests is irrelevant.

Suicide is a result of complete insanity. Disease of the mind. Do you understand that? Do you really think we should punish sick people?
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I don’t agree with your assessment of suicide but I do agree that suicide itself should not be a crime.

However, if a suicide includes taking the life of another innocent person, that is murder. Sanity is for the courts to decide.

If I walk into a crowd with a bomb strapped to me and it doesn’t explode when I attempt to set it off, that is still attempted murder even though I am trying to commit suicide.
 
bowerbird said:
Overreacting? Moi???

(sticks nose in air in high dudgeon)

Cap old dear - have you any idea of how many Teratogens there are out there?
Teratogens - Toxipedia
Teratogenic Substances: Toxicology

This is of course inclusive of one of the more pervasive teratogens - alcohol, which causes Foetal Alcohol Syndrome
Click to expand...

Yeah, over reacting. Does one give a fetus fetal alcohol syndrome by having one glass of wine or by drinking significantly? This is why I said you were over reacting when you brought up eating at McDonalds, or following the right diet/exercise regime. There are degrees of problematic behavior.
 
GPS_Flex said:
I don’t agree with your assessment of suicide but I do agree that suicide itself should not be a crime.

However, if a suicide includes taking the life of another innocent person, that is murder. Sanity is for the courts to decide.

If I walk into a crowd with a bomb strapped to me and it doesn’t explode when I attempt to set it off, that is still attempted murder even though I am trying to commit suicide.
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There's nothing to agree with. You need to educate yourself about mental illness. It's really that simple. Mental illness is well-established as a physiological disease. It can be terminal, like any other serious disease. This is your own unwillingness to try to understand it.

Suicide bombers are, like most brainwashed fanatics, kept so ignorant that they can be taught to believe anything. Extreme and misguided ignorance can cause similar-looking behaviors, but it is radically different than not wanting to live. Though personally I'd also be in favor of sentencing the person reasponsible for brainwashing them.
 
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bowerbird said:
It is not uncommon for pregnant women to be charged with child endangerment and here we are mandated to report that to the Department of Child Services. But does that mean we will jail them? NO!
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I don’t see how, under current law, one can justify arresting or jailing women who are pregnant considering the current law of the land.

My personal preference on the issue though would be for the law to change so that past a certain point in the pregnancy, the fetus is considered a child in the eyes of the law and is given all of the rights and protections there under, even in circumstances such as suicide attempts, drug abuse, assaulting a child that is still in the womb, etc.

Like CC said though, there are a lot of grey areas in this issue and my personal preference would probably be a logistical nightmare to enforce and would probably lead to horrible abuses by the avid pro-life crowd.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Yeah, over reacting. Does one give a fetus fetal alcohol syndrome by having one glass of wine or by drinking significantly? This is why I said you were over reacting when you brought up eating at McDonalds, or following the right diet/exercise regime. There are degrees of problematic behavior.
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While there ARE degrees of problematic behaviour it is still child endangerment when there is such clear evidence of the teratogenic effects of lack of an adequate diet. In fact there is MORE evidence supporting the severe teratogenic effects of lack of Folate and B12 than there is for Cocaine causing severe defects

And what is the commonest reason for B 12 deficiency? Vegetarianism

Watch out all you vege Mums to be!!


But this is not even a "slippery slope" argument because the Camel is inside the tent and chewing on the drapes.

The bottom line remains that the charges are disproportionate to the "crimes"
 
GPS_Flex said:
I don’t see how, under current law, one can justify arresting or jailing women who are pregnant considering the current law of the land.

My personal preference on the issue though would be for the law to change so that past a certain point in the pregnancy, the fetus is considered a child in the eyes of the law and is given all of the rights and protections there under, even in circumstances such as suicide attempts, drug abuse, assaulting a child that is still in the womb, etc.

Like CC said though, there are a lot of grey areas in this issue and my personal preference would probably be a logistical nightmare to enforce and would probably lead to horrible abuses by the avid pro-life crowd.
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I am talking from experience in Queensland Aust. Abortion is illegal here and women who are substance abusers HAVE to be reported to DOCS (Dept of Child Services) This does not mean that they will automatically go to jail - but they may be counselled and encouraged to give up - AND the child might be fostered out at birth
 
MistressNomad said:
There's nothing to agree with. You need to educate yourself about mental illness. It's really that simple. Mental illness is well-established as a physiological disease. It can be terminal, like any other serious disease. This is your own unwillingness to try to understand it.

Suicide bombers are, like most brainwashed fanatics, kept so ignorant that they can be taught to believe anything. Extreme and misguided ignorance can cause similar-looking behaviors, but it is radically different than not wanting to live. Though personally I'd also be in favor of sentencing the person reasponsible for brainwashing them.
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I’m married to a shrink. There is a DSM IV in my book case 3 feet away from me. I know that doesn’t make ME an expert but I think I’m a bit more educated on mental illness than the average person.

Look, I could rattle off two dozen reasons a person would take their own lives even though they aren’t mentally ill. Trust me, I’ve been in some situations where I would have taken my own life rather than allow a particular enemy to capture me and I’m sane now and would have been had I been forced to make that choice.

You obviously have a very big heart and that is extremely admirable, life however isn’t always as simple as your feelings tell you it is or should be.
 
MistressNomad said:
But it still wasn't elective. None of these cases show intent to abort. One was a drug addict, one was severely ill, and one doesn't appear to have done anything at all. I still don't get how this works.

I suspect that's because it's not supposed to make sense. It's supposed to push anti-choice laws.
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Oh, no doubt. That's why I'm not comfortable with anything less than clear and irrefutable proof of said intent.
 
GPS_Flex said:
I’m married to a shrink. There is a DSM IV in my book case 3 feet away from me. I know that doesn’t make ME an expert but I think I’m a bit more educated on mental illness than the average person.

Look, I could rattle off two dozen reasons a person would take their own lives even though they aren’t mentally ill. Trust me, I’ve been in some situations where I would have taken my own life rather than allow a particular enemy to capture me and I’m sane now and would have been had I been forced to make that choice.

You obviously have a very big heart and that is extremely admirable, life however isn’t always as simple as your feelings tell you it is or should be.
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Facing two alternative options for how you are going to die and picking one is also not the same as being suicidal. Though I am sorry you had to go through that. "Suicidal" as a verb implies intent, typically due to on-going emotional pain. That means mental illness.

Someone who freaks out over being dumped and drinks a bottle of poison is mentally ill. Someone who veers off a road to dig themselves into a tree is mentally ill.

Someone who must pick one of two ways to die is not. Someone who has been kept ignorant of basically the life process is not either. Suicide may apply, but suicidal does not.

I happened to have studied psychology a bit - not as much as your wife I'm sure - but enough that I can guess what was probably going on with the woman in that article. I also spend a lot of time letting people talk. I'm a writer. I like to do so. If the person is able to articulate it well enough (I know someone who was struck dumb due to the depth of her depression for several days), the world they live in is obviously not the same world the rest of us live in. It is obviously a disease. It is obviously something that attacks them. Even if here in reality we may see them attack us.

It's not as simple as writing off people who are sick so you can have the comfort of a black-and-white innocent-guilty decision either.
 
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bowerbird said:
I am talking from experience in Queensland Aust. Abortion is illegal here and women who are substance abusers HAVE to be reported to DOCS (Dept of Child Services) This does not mean that they will automatically go to jail - but they may be counselled and encouraged to give up - AND the child might be fostered out at birth
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This is interesting. I’m a bit surprised to learn that abortion isn’t legal everywhere in Australia. If abortion wasn’t legal here, I would probably support certain situations where the child is fostered out at birth rather than leaving it under the care of an addict.
 
GPS_Flex said:
I also think that the father shouldn’t be forced to pay child support if he has no say in whether the mother aborts or not.
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So because a guy is a piece of **** father he shouldn't have to support the life he made? You would much rather more of your tax dollars would be used so these assholes get a free space?
 
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