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Thread: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

  1. #131
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Wonder when they are going to start charging fat women..... or too skinny women.... or women that exercise "too much" during their pregnancy... talk about a slippery slope!

    But it is all part of the war against women by the GOP and the religious radical right.
    I think there is also a touch of racism in there as well. Even the replies on here "Well if she was a crack head she deserves it!" Carry a racist undertone with the connotation that many crack addicts are not white and well brought up
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  2. #132
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Solution is to drug test mothers at OBGYN visits during their pregnancy. Then you'll have evidence towards a charge of chemical endangerment if you need it.
    And GUESS what happens when you do that? Result - women who refuse to go to antenatal clinics - and guess what happens when THAT occurs?

    Dead mothers

    Your maternal mortality rates skyrocket

    How do I know this for sure? I am a nurse working in an area with a large indigenous population who, until recently, have had a horrific alcohol problem - the mothers would often "take off bush" when pregnant. Result - well just google up the mortality rates for indigenous women in Australia - they are gobsmacking!

    Mortality « Overview of Australian Indigenous health status 2010 « Health facts « Australian Indigenous HealthInfoNet

    ratio of 21.5 versus 7.9 - says it all really
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  3. #133
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    I think there is also a touch of racism in there as well. Even the replies on here "Well if she was a crack head she deserves it!" Carry a racist undertone with the connotation that many crack addicts are not white and well brought up
    Wait...a "touch of racism"? Sorry but your statement sounds more racist than what you are calling racist. Perhaps you meant some other word? Bigoted perhaps?
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  4. #134
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I guess the greater question should be.
    Should it be illegal to expose a fetus to toxic chemicals in utero, when you want to carry it to term?
    Again I ask - have you ANY idea how many substances are implicated in causing harm to the foetus?
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  5. #135
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    I think there is also a touch of racism in there as well. Even the replies on here "Well if she was a crack head she deserves it!" Carry a racist undertone with the connotation that many crack addicts are not white and well brought up
    Wait a minute....What the.....Bird, I have the utmost respect for you and your professional opinion as a nurse, however you are injecting race into a debate where none is present, nor implied except in your weak attempt to purposely inject it in yourself.

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  6. #136
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Maybe you're right on that.

    I, however, do not agree that a mother doing drugs or anything that seriously endangers the life of a fetus she wants to bring to term, should not go unpunished.

    It's cruel to negligently or purposefully bring a child in the world, that could have severe handicaps.
    Not to mention the cost to the public.
    How should these women be punished? And who determines which cases deserve punishment. As bowerbird said, there are environmental factors beyond the woman's control that cause defects, as well. How does one go about determining which cases are worthy of punishment? This would turn into a witch hunt; as if having defected children isn't upsetting enough, now these poor women have to go through the shame and humiliation of investigations and public scrutiny. Some of the same people who act outraged by other losses of liberty seem at ease exposing and criticizing perfect strangers about their personal tragedies. It's truly sad that, as a society, we haven't moved past those tendencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    And my question to you is the same as my question to Cap'n C - Have you ANY idea how many substances and or lack of substances are teratogenic? (yes you will probably have to look up that word - consider it my contribution to the general improvement of the world's vocabulary)

    One of the most well documented is Folate - lack of which causes neural tube deficit (baby is born sometimes without a brain or parts of the brain and spinal chord outside the body) but there are a LOT of drugs out there with Teratogenic effects - so much so that EVERY drug has the effects during pregnancy listed. What is NOT listed because they are not known is the common toxins found around the average household

    But one of the most common teratogens is simply alcohol
    Exactly right. Where would one draw the line in punishing women who have unhealthy children? And how should they be punished?

    Jail, prison, fines? It's ridiculous.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  7. #137
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Wait a minute....What the.....Bird, I have the utmost respect for you and your professional opinion as a nurse, however you are injecting race into a debate where none is present, nor implied except in your weak attempt to purposely inject it in yourself.

    j-mac
    Jay old dear - it is all about social constructs surrounding races - some are flattering but most are not

    I am willing to bet - and will happily start a poll on this - that when most people talk of young pregnant cocaine addicted women the mental image that is evoked in many is of a young African - American woman. We can thank the media for this but it is there.

    These "social constructs" often influence how we think on certain subjects.

    Every so often it is good to drag them into the spotlight and REALLY examine them and if they are found to be unfair - jump up and down on them!!
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  8. #138
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    How should these women be punished? And who determines which cases deserve punishment. As bowerbird said, there are environmental factors beyond the woman's control that cause defects, as well. How does one go about determining which cases are worthy of punishment? This would turn into a witch hunt; as if having defected children isn't upsetting enough, now these poor women have to go through the shame and humiliation of investigations and public scrutiny. Some of the same people who act outraged by other losses of liberty seem at ease exposing and criticizing perfect strangers about their personal tragedies. It's truly sad that, as a society, we haven't moved past those tendencies.
    I'm sorry but there is no excuse to bring a child in this world while using drugs that can harm said child.
    Want to take the risks, fine, deal with the consequences.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  9. #139
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    Again I ask - have you ANY idea how many substances are implicated in causing harm to the foetus?
    I'm talking about purposeful use of drugs and other substances that can cause irreparable harm to the fetus, if brought to term.
    I am not saying to outlaw abortion, I'm saying that children brought to term with mental and physical damage, brought about by reckless and negligent behavior should be punished.

    It's no different than punishing a person who punches a pregnant women in the stomach.

    Edit:
    No I'm not talking about far off ****, like drinking well water one time, that the mother had no idea was full of lead or mercury.
    We're talking about commonly known toxins to fetal development, like alcohol, cocaine, crack, meth, etc.

    There should be some minimum level of moral responsibility to both the mother and father of a fetus, that they want to bring to term.
    Excusing such behavior is repugnant.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 07-04-11 at 08:01 PM.
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  10. #140
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    Re: Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm sorry but there is no excuse to bring a child in this world while using drugs that can harm said child.
    Want to take the risks, fine, deal with the consequences.
    Just drugs? How about poor diet, or reckless driving? Smoking causes low birth rate and a higher chances of SIDS. What if the mother doesn't breastfeed. The baby has a higher rate of infections and a higher chance of dying of SIDS.

    And what consequences should there be?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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