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Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds over

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

The article fails to support your point regardless of your intent.

I question your ability to process information and comprehend and not the article. You believe what you want - it's a free country.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

So you have never been to China, and expect us to take your third rate sources as the mean. Are there ghost towns in China? Probably (although i have never seen them in person). Are there ghost towns all over the world? Of course there are! Take a trip to Toledo Ohio for a local example.

However, such instances are outliers and do not represent the mean.

Also; there is no need to straw man with the quality of life argument.

Quality of life isn't a strawman argument, perhaps you should look up the definitions.

As far as third rate sources? Here are a few more. Perhaps you'll recognize the organizations:

Why China's Ghost Towns Matter for Our Economy - Derek Thompson - Business - The Atlantic

And Now Presenting: Amazing Satellite Images Of The Ghost Cities Of China

Ordos, China: A Modern Ghost Town - Photo Essays - TIME

China's Ghost Cities: Could The Real Estate Bubble Burst? (VIDEO)

A Ghost Town in China - Slide Show - NYTimes.com

Ghost Towns In China Due to Property Bubble - Robert Lenzner - StreetTalk - Forbes

Also, let's not forget....these ghost towns were built and never populated. Toledo used to be populated and has since seen some decline in some areas. Nothing on par with the size and scope of these Chinese towns.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

I'd like to know where most of the millionaires and billionaires move to... BTW, point out my generalities and assumptions? You made a claim, I want more details about that claim.

How about some of this??

And now it seems you are telling me we have to let China pass us up, because it can ONLY be done on the backs of the people... slave laboring with zero workers rights? America didn't build infrastructure that way, never did.
This is an assumption based on....not sure what. I never said that. Never even implied it.

But it's ironic to notice that you are conservative and the GOP is trying to hamper worker rights in this country,
This is a generalization or stereotype of the GOP and is quite untrue, and merely a matter of biased perspective

however, your attitude is still... we can't compete with China, we can't have modern, state of the art infrastructure.
An assumption of my attitude, based on a statement I never made.

Sounds to me like the GOP's attitude is to weaken worker rights for the sake of budgeting, but won't use any proceeds to invest in the country. They won't anything to invest in the country.
Generalization AND assumption based, again, on a biased perspective of the GOP's intent. This is a typical and often indefensible (with facts) argument used to villianize the GOP for having a different idea on how to improve our country.

but it begs the question, why don't you believe in investing in America and when will be the time?
An assumption based, again, on an argument I never made.

Answer your question? Basically, that entire post was assumption, generalization, and opinions....all presented as facts..or at least, presented as something you're so sure of that you treat it as fact.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

You can't guarantee squat. It's a myth that the wealthy pack their stuff up and leave just because of a few percentage increases in tax rates.
I am near rich. Taxes were clearly in my calculus before I moved to Alabama. California no longer gets to rape me.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Perhaps you mean generating? Nobody "invented" electricity. Ben Franklin discovered conductivity, Edison discovered how to use it to generate light...either one of them received government money that I'm aware of. As for the rest of your post, I'm not responding to assumptions and generalizations because they're a waste of time and, quite frankly, you wouldn't listen anyway.

No, I meant inventing as in inventing electricity and electrical technology for the purpose of mass consumption. As for everything else I said, I am entitled to my opinion. This is debate thread after all. And how do the hell you know I wouldn't listen? As long as we stay on topic, then it's fair to discuss. If you want to turn this into a historical debate about my opinions then that wouldn't be on topic.

I did not say we can't compete with China. My point was that China is doing things the wrong way. They're investing in infrastructure but not in people. People suffer, infrastructure is going to waste, money is being wasted, and the people are no better for it. What does it matter if they have state of the art cities but nobody living in them??? To say "China's doing this and we should too" is a very generalized, vague argument.

I am cautious of entering a discuss if it starts out, I didn't say this or that and I refuse to discuss that, but oh well... what the hell. I just expect respect and no bull****. Your approach is you want an actual honest debate, so here it is. I expect the same.

I am not praising China or expecting anybody else too. China isn't perfect, but China is surpassing us and will in our lifetime. That is a fact. They are investing in the infrastructure and technology at a faster rate than us. You say China isn't doing it right, I won't debate that... your opinion. All I am saying is that America needs to invest in infrastructure to keep up with the rest of the world, to get off of foreign oil, and to have quality of life comparable to the rest of the world in the future. We can't afford to have the attitude that it isn't worth it. You seem to agree. Ok, next.

Should we invest in infrastructure? Sure! Should we penalize people do to it, like China does? Hell no! Should we create super state-of-the-art cities that nobody can afford to live in? Absolutely not!

I don't want to be like China... I want to be better than China.

When the money doesn't exist, changes have to be made. We can't keep paying for everything everybody wants when the money doesn't exist. Do you buy your son a brand new graphics computer for college at $1600 when the mortgage is due and you're $300 short? That computer would sure help him, but so does having a house. Tough decisions have to made by familes, and the government is no different. We can raise taxes every day on everybody above poverty but it won't solve the problem.

Cuts are necessary. Spending is out of control, and yet the problems still exist. Do you ever stop to ask why? Do you ever even consider the fact that maybe money isn't the biggest or even most important problem in poor performance? Do you ever consider that maybe, just maybe, we spend so much time focusing on their message of cuts and punishment of the poor for lack of resources that we're missing for the forest for the trees? We don't ask them to justify the spending because they've convinced us we need it. But are we seeing results?

You don't address generalizations, but you're full of them.

Yes, like you said, we have a host problems facing the country, long term and short term problems. The immediate concern in the recession, which isn't the same as the government spending money. We need to fix the recession first, then fixing government spending will be easier. We also need to change what we spend money on, and that is where the actual meat of the debate comes in.

The fact is once the nation gets employment rates back up, more people will be productive and the amount of people paying taxes will increase. The amount of people consuming goods in the free market will increase, so that will mean economic growth. Once we start getting economic growth, then meeting our debt obligations will be more practical.

Attacking public sector workers or shutting down the government like in Minnesota is not going to help the recession, the debt, or deficit. It will cost the state money, and firing public sector workers will put more people on unemployment and government assistance.

You're basically taking them off the government's right tit and putting them on the left.

The difference is when they are productive and working in the public sector, they are producing services and goods and being innovative, all of which has more positive ramifications on the private sector than sitting on the couch and collecting gov assistance.

Investing in the country is a long term position and will require spending.

The government employing people requires spending.

The government firing people requires spending.

If the government shuts down, it still costs money.


We put ourselves in the position to begin with... We spent on the wrong things. As long as we spend money and undertake massive investment projects there will be a debt and a deficit, but we should have a deficit that shows for something. Don't you agree?

I don't think spending on wars was a wise economic decision, nor is giving wealthy tax payers huge tax breaks along ON TOP OF giving middle income tax payers massive tax credits like EIC. All of this was during much the Bush Admin. Sure, the people are ****ing loving it up and they are spoiled, but it's simply not sustainable.

What the Bush Admin did was decide to not pay the mortgage and buy computers for all the kids. Now the kids are spoiled, and the GOP is too damn scared to put their damn foot down and say no, enough is enough.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Quality of life isn't a strawman argument, perhaps you should look up the definitions.

As far as third rate sources? Here are a few more. Perhaps you'll recognize the organizations:

Why China's Ghost Towns Matter for Our Economy - Derek Thompson - Business - The Atlantic

And Now Presenting: Amazing Satellite Images Of The Ghost Cities Of China

Ordos, China: A Modern Ghost Town - Photo Essays - TIME

China's Ghost Cities: Could The Real Estate Bubble Burst? (VIDEO)

A Ghost Town in China - Slide Show - NYTimes.com

Ghost Towns In China Due to Property Bubble - Robert Lenzner - StreetTalk - Forbes

Also, let's not forget....these ghost towns were built and never populated. Toledo used to be populated and has since seen some decline in some areas. Nothing on par with the size and scope of these Chinese towns.

First off, it is a straw man to bring up the poor quality of life in China as i never made a comment pertaining to how good they have it in China.

Again, you can link to the character maximum, it still does not discredit my statement that these "ghost towns" are the exception rather than the rule. When you actually go to China and see a ghost town, i'll be more than willing to take your opinion with anything more than a grain of salt.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

All I am saying is that America needs to invest in infrastructure to keep up with the rest of the world, to get off of foreign oil, and to have quality of life comparable to the rest of the world in the future.
What do you mean by this? The stimulus was largely about funding public sector union jobs at the state level to keep the one term Marxist president Obama's voter base employed. Is this the infrastructure you believe needs to be funded? Why aren't two trillion dollars enough to "invest in infrastructure"? Why does that require an additional borrowing and printing of 1.6 trillion more?

The immediate concern in the recession, which isn't the same as the government spending money. We need to fix the recession first, then fixing government spending will be easier.
Stopping the government spending will automatically put us on the right track to end the one term Marxist president Obama's depression.

Attacking public sector workers or shutting down the government like in Minnesota is not going to help the recession, the debt, or deficit. It will cost the state money, and firing public sector workers will put more people on unemployment and government assistance.
It stops the madness. That is a very good start.

The difference is when they are productive and working in the public sector, they are producing services and goods and being innovative, all of which has more positive ramifications on the private sector than sitting on the couch and collecting gov assistance.
Government workers, as a rule do not create wealth. They consume the wealth that others created and had take from them. By force. Shut down the public sector unions. They are dangerous to our liberty. They consume our wealth.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

How about some of this??


This is an assumption based on....not sure what. I never said that. Never even implied it.


This is a generalization or stereotype of the GOP and is quite untrue, and merely a matter of biased perspective


An assumption of my attitude, based on a statement I never made.


Generalization AND assumption based, again, on a biased perspective of the GOP's intent. This is a typical and often indefensible (with facts) argument used to villianize the GOP for having a different idea on how to improve our country.


An assumption based, again, on an argument I never made.

Answer your question? Basically, that entire post was assumption, generalization, and opinions....all presented as facts..or at least, presented as something you're so sure of that you treat it as fact.

If you read my comments closely, it's obvious they are worded like they are opinions and I did that intentionally.

And now it seems you are telling me we have to let China pass us up, because it can ONLY be done on the backs of the people... slave laboring with zero workers rights? America didn't build infrastructure that way, never did.

That's the way it seems to me, that's is my opinion. I am not telling you what you are saying, that your views are flawed. I am not telling you how it is. I am telling you how I OBSERVE things to be.

It's pretty cut and dry stuff. You can't have a discussion in a debate thread with an empty mind or no opinions. My opinions came from somewhere, and I always knew they were opinions. Tried to make it apparent in the wording that it's not a fact. I know that. Part of debating here is learning... I have to approach a discussion somehow. You also did a lot of same things in your responses to me.

So for the third time, where are millionaires and billionaires moving? I honestly can't think they want to move somewhere 1st world... especially no Europe, not Canada, so doesn't leave very many 1st world countries. Obviously they are trade offs. Where are they moving to?
 
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Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

What do you mean by this? The stimulus was largely about funding public sector union jobs at the state level to keep the one term Marxist president Obama's voter base employed. Is this the infrastructure you believe needs to be funded? Why aren't two trillion dollars enough to "invest in infrastructure"? Why does that require an additional borrowing and printing of 1.6 trillion more?


Stopping the government spending will automatically put us on the right track to end the one term Marxist president Obama's depression.


It stops the madness. That is a very good start.


Government workers, as a rule do not create wealth. They consume the wealth that others created and had take from them. By force. Shut down the public sector unions. They are dangerous to our liberty. They consume our wealth.

Show me that rule... how wait, we established you don't know anything about economics and I know too much. I am sure your definition of wealth, like all your other economic definitions, is flawed to boot...

I am not debating the stimulus either.

It seems like your only economic concern is government management, not the free market, or general economics... why else would you argue to impair the economic prosperity of the entire country like that? You're wearing tunnel vision goggles...
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Show me that rule... how wait, we established you don't know anything about economics and I know too much. I am sure your definition of wealth, like all your other economic definitions, is flawed to boot...
So why did you dodge? My starting assumption is that you are all knowing and that I know nothing at all. But if you believe that government workers create wealth perhaps my starting assumption is flawed.
I am not debating the stimulus either.
I was responding to your statement that we need to invest in America's infrastructure. The stimulus was supposed to be all about funding shove ready jobs. The one term Marxist president Obama lied. It was never about that. It was about funding unions.

It seems like your only economic concern is government management, not the free market, or general economics... why else would you argue to impair the economic prosperity of the entire country like that? You're wearing tunnel vision goggles...
I loathe centrally planned top down economies. The government has some very limited responsibilities. It needs to return to its Constitutional boundaries so that we can continue to remain free. The free market works best at putting scarce resources to work for the greatest good of all concerned. Governments always fail because they have no interest in providing anything of value other than votes for incumbent politicians.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

So why did you dodge? My starting assumption is that you are all knowing and that I know nothing at all. But if you believe that government workers create wealth perhaps my starting assumption is flawed.

I was responding to your statement that we need to invest in America's infrastructure. The stimulus was supposed to be all about funding shove ready jobs. The one term Marxist president Obama lied. It was never about that. It was about funding unions.


I loathe centrally planned top down economies. The government has some very limited responsibilities. It needs to return to its Constitutional boundaries so that we can continue to remain free. The free market works best at putting scarce resources to work for the greatest good of all concerned. Governments always fail because they have no interest in providing anything of value other than votes for incumbent politicians.

I dodged because your question is ridiculous... The government and government workers have created a lot of wealth and assets for this country which are currently owned by the country and you probably take advantage of such assets everyday. Government assets would be military bases, military equipment, public roads, millions of acres of federally and government owned public lands, federally/government owned parks, federally/government owned buildings, canals and waterway systems, bridges, etc. etc..
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

I dodged because your question is ridiculous... The government and government workers have created a lot of wealth and assets for this country which are currently owned by the country and you probably take advantage of such assets everyday. Government assets would be military bases, military equipment, public roads, millions of acres of federally and government owned public lands, federally/government owned parks, federally/government owned buildings, canals and waterway systems, bridges, etc. etc..

Some people seem to think that if some resource does not make money through usage charges, it must not be worth the money invested into it. They tend to ignore the use and utility to brings for society as a whole.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

I dodged because your question is ridiculous... The government and government workers have created a lot of wealth and assets for this country which are currently owned by the country and you probably take advantage of such assets everyday.
Well no. Government workers did not create wealth. They took wealth from others to create a few things of value. That wealth was created by others. Not by government workers.

Government assets would be military bases, military equipment, public roads, millions of acres of federally and government owned public lands, federally/government owned parks, federally/government owned buildings, canals and waterway systems, bridges, etc. etc..
I am delighted to see that the government took the wealth that others created and used some of it to purchase a few things of value. What about the rest?

This is where most liberals just get it wrong and always will. Government, sometimes takes the wealth that others have created, and uses it to purchase the things that support its constitutional role. But more often than not government uses the wealth of others to grow...government.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Some people seem to think that if some resource does not make money through usage charges, it must not be worth the money invested into it. They tend to ignore the use and utility to brings for society as a whole.
Some people think that government has vaults full of money that it did not take from productive people. They tend to ignore the use and utility that wealth in private hands brings to society as a whole.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

The Minnesota GOP pushed this as a test to see how the pubic reacts to it so they can decide if they do the same in more states and even on the national level and get away with blaming the Democrats. It is part of right wing war on the working class by destroying government as a viable ally of the working class American.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

The Minnesota GOP pushed this as a test to see how the pubic reacts to it so they can decide if they do the same in more states and even on the national level and get away with blaming the Democrats. It is part of right wing war on the working class by destroying government as a viable ally of the working class American.

You do know Minnesotans will be split on this, right? This isn't just some machination that came from out of some laboratory in DC cooked up to bring chaos into state governments across the country.
 
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Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

You do know Minnesotans will be split on this, right? This isn't just some machination that came from out of some laboratory in DC cooked up to bring chaos into state governments across the country.

That's funny...
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

But that doesn't really prove anything. And it's counter-intuitive - the taxes on the rich are higher in most of the places these people are moving to than they are in the US.

You also probably have the causation reversed. If you make less than $90,000 a year, you don't pay dual taxes. You only pay them in your country of residence. Therefore, people who aren't rich have no reason to renounce their citizenship over taxes, because they aren't being dual-taxed. Only the rich have a reason to do it.

And the fact that THEY HAVE A REASON is reason enough that it's wrong.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

The Minnesota GOP pushed this as a test to see how the pubic reacts to it so they can decide if they do the same in more states and even on the national level and get away with blaming the Democrats.
Sounds good to me. The democrats own it. We have to clean it up. A very good way to do so is to destroy the power of the public sector unions all over the nation. Union thugs should have no role to play in government. Let us only hope enough people realize the destructive nature of the unions and the democrats combined against the American taxpayer and the nation as a whole.

It is part of right wing war on the working class by destroying government as a viable ally of the working class American.
I hope this right response to the union minion and thug combining with democrats in government will be nationwide. If we succeed the nation will remain free.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

That's funny...

People tend to forget that the locals have something to do with it..... :)
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Minnesota stats:


71% support raising taxes on those making over $250,000. And a whopping 79% support raising taxes on those making over $1,000,000.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Many thanks to Senator Mark Dayton.

Dayton vetoed the other spending proposals. He also vetoed Republican-backed bills to restrict abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy and require voters to present photo identification at the polls similar to Republican efforts across the country.
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Sounds good to me. The democrats own it. We have to clean it up. A very good way to do so is to destroy the power of the public sector unions all over the nation. Union thugs should have no role to play in government. Let us only hope enough people realize the destructive nature of the unions and the democrats combined against the American taxpayer and the nation as a whole.


I hope this right response to the union minion and thug combining with democrats in government will be nationwide. If we succeed the nation will remain free.

Yeah! It's those damn unions! I mean, it were them there damned unions what caused the financial crises which sucked trillions of dollars out of the US economy even as corporations saw record profits and executive pay skyrocketed! It were also them there damned unions what forced us into multiple military conflicts costing us trillions of dollars in direct cost and trillions more in "hidden" costs like interest on the debt and caring for wounded vets! It were also them damned unions what caused them there Republicans to cut taxes for the uber-wealthy during a time of "war"!

It were the damnable unions!

Whew! Pass me some of that Kool-Aid because after that tirade, I'm gettin' a might bit thirsty...
 
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Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Sounds good to me.

I feel I need to post this picture everywhere.

betterinsomalia.jpg
 
Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Minnesota stats:


71% support raising taxes on those making over $250,000. And a whopping 79% support raising taxes on those making over $1,000,000.
Three wolves voting with two sheep on what is for dinner....
 
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