Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds over

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Ockham said:

IF it really bothers you go down to Lowes or Home Depot, buy some asphalt patch, grab a shovel and a few orange cones and get to work.

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His money would be paying for the roads anyway. Mine as well let him pay for it directly and contribute his labor. If everyone kept up the piece of road in front of their house at their own expense it would save the gov't billions.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

dontworrybehappy said:

His money would be paying for the roads anyway. Mine as well let him pay for it directly and contribute his labor. If everyone kept up the piece of road in front of their house at their own expense it would save the gov't billions.

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That happens all the time now anyway... I pay for education out of my property taxes whether I use the public school system or not, whether I have kids or not.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Ockham said:

Huh... some myth.

More Rich Americans Renounce U.S. Citizenship for Lower Taxes - DailyFinance

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From your link:

"Many of those leaving the U.S. behind have dual nationality and may not have lived in the country for years. Others have lived overseas for so long that America no longer feels like home"

So you're trying to imply that someone would leave the US to go to a country like England or France in order to just AVOID paying higher taxes? Lol...

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Tax calculations for 1 person @ poverty level:


Tac calculations for 1 person about that mysteriously determined 250k line:


If either of them can claim any deduction, those numbers would change. Anybody wanna show me how that 68K+ amount is dropping down to $600 or less?

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

As I already said, I am talking about all-inclusive.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

dontworrybehappy said:

His money would be paying for the roads anyway. Mine as well let him pay for it directly and contribute his labor. If everyone kept up the piece of road in front of their house at their own expense it would save the gov't billions.

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Riiiight. That's a GREAT idea...for a third world nation.

Of course, we do have all these children just enjoying their childhoods. Why not put them back to work? Nothing builds character like forcing an 8 year old to do back breaking heavy labor 14 hours a day, every day for a few dollars a week...amiright?

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

MistressNomad said:

That largely depends on where you live. I can likewise tell you the opposite was true in some places I lived. But that is the average.

We're already starting to just look the other way when major corporations dodge around taxes. How long before we stop pretending we care and just get rid of their taxes all together? And who is that tax gap burden falling on? Before you tell me "the middle class," what do the middle class turn into when they run out of money?

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I don't play that class warfare game, first of all. Secondly, I never said I don't support corporate taxes. I actually advocate fairly loudly for the removal of subsidies and tax breaks, replacing them with a system of guaranteed, locked in, percentage based tax system (across the board, not bracketed). That would apply to citizens as well. This idea that we need to penalize somebody for success to benefit those who aren't as successful is illogical. The poor use more resources and cost more money than the rich. We need to find a way to fix that problem without penalizing either group. The simpliest solution in this case is not the most sound. Minnesota will lose businesses and wealthy residents if they decide to use them as the work horses to support budget gaps. Then those gaps (plus more) still exist, and now they can't rely on taxing those people anymore to solve the problem. So then what? Where do you go when you've drained the well?

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

toddwv said:

Riiiight. That's a GREAT idea...for a third world nation.

Of course, we do have all these children just enjoying their childhoods. Why not put them back to work? Nothing builds character like forcing an 8 year old to do back breaking heavy labor 14 hours a day, every day for a few dollars a week...amiright?

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Why are you using hyperbolic nonsense? That lends nothing to the debate (nothing more than self-paving does, for that matter).

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Ockham said:

Huh... some myth.

More Rich Americans Renounce U.S. Citizenship for Lower Taxes - DailyFinance

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You're misrepresenting the article.

The US is one of the very few countries that requires you to pay taxes on money you make outside the country over $90,000. So you're paying taxes in 2 different countries.

The only way around this is to renounce your citizenship.

They are not leaving the US for lower taxes. They already left for some other reason. They are renouncing their citizenship so they don't have to pay taxes in a country they don't even live in.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

MistressNomad said:

You're misrepresenting the article.

The US is one of the very few countries that requires you to pay taxes on money you make outside the country over $90,000. So you're paying taxes in 2 different countries.

The only way around this is to renounce your citizenship.

They are not leaving the US for lower taxes. They already left for some other reason. They are renouncing their citizenship so they don't have to pay taxes in a country they don't even live in.

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They're leaving for more than one reason surely - but they're still leaving. My response is this is NOT a myth. I also never claimed to only represent one issue or reason why they are leaving. They could be leaving for more reasons than the article gave outside of taxes, finances, or maybe even other issues. That does not detract from the fact, at a 1,000 foot view, they are leaving. Hence my point: it's not a myth.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Ockham said:

They're leaving for more than one reason surely - but they're still leaving. My response is this is NOT a myth. I also never claimed to only represent one issue or reason why they are leaving. They could be leaving for more reasons than the article gave outside of taxes, finances, or maybe even other issues. That does not detract from the fact, at a 1,000 foot view, they are leaving. Hence my point: it's not a myth.

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Well, sure... it just doesn't show that they're leaving for reasons that make it at all relevant to this thread.

How many not-rich people are leaving is another question, and one which I suspect turns this further still away from relevancy.

Another question still, is why they would go to countries where taxes on the rich are actually higher than they are here. Since most of them seem to have moved quite a while ago, I'm guessing many of them built their fortune elsewhere.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

MistressNomad said:

Well, sure... it just doesn't show that they're leaving for reasons that make it at all relevant to this thread.

How many not-rich people are leaving is another question, and one which I suspect turns this further still away from relevancy.

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Don't know, but the not-rich are irrelevant to my point which was to show the rich leaving is not a myth. Sure to find out how many others are leaving would be good background information - as well as understanding why they would be leaving. Sorry to be so focused but if I wasn't, the point tends to get lost in the noise.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

BDBoop said:

Minnesota lawmakers meet on budget hours before shutdown | Reuters



:2wave:

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This is sad... WTF is wrong with elected officials. Sure, we don't like taxes but we are willing to pay enough for our government to actually FUNCTION.

:2mad:

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Ockham said:

They're leaving for more than one reason surely - but they're still leaving. My response is this is NOT a myth. I also never claimed to only represent one issue or reason why they are leaving. They could be leaving for more reasons than the article gave outside of taxes, finances, or maybe even other issues. That does not detract from the fact, at a 1,000 foot view, they are leaving. Hence my point: it's not a myth.

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You're missing the point. They're not leaving. They have already left. The article states that they are renouncing their US citizenships because they have lived in another country and plan to stay there and no longer feel it's worth paying dual taxes to retain their citizenship.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

MistressNomad said:

GOP's "let's strangle the schools to death and borrow more money" vs. Dayton's "maybe a couple thousand of the richest people in the state could spare a few more pennies?"

This is what it really came down to. This was what the stalemate was over.

Absolutely sickening.

And Councilman, way to offer yet another short-term solution with serious long-term consequences due an inability to see any further into the future than next election season. Ideas like that are why we're ****ed in the first place. As a matter of fact, THAT idea in particular is one of the reasons we're ****ed.

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These guys were $billions in the hole, you really think the richest Minnisotans will be able to make that up?

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

American said:

These guys were $billions in the hole, you really think the richest Minnisotans will be able to make that up?

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No. I am just pointing out that is what the stalemate is over.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Misterveritis said:

In the minds of the left isn't that always what it is about? Taking more from the productive to give to public sector union thugs?
I hope the Republicans will stick to their guns. No increase in taxes or in tax rates. It is time for the unproductive to figure out life on their own.

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I didn't read the article as union busting... In fact, didn't read anything about unions, so why did you bring that up?

And these people are productive... They work for schools as teachers and for the government filing paperwork and renewing your license. They are doing their job. The politicians also work for the government but it looks like the GOP is in favor of being unproductive here and going home to cry.

Honestly, why even bring up productivity here... do you simply view this as on punishing people on welfare or what?

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Ockham said:

Don't know, but the not-rich are irrelevant to my point which was to show the rich leaving is not a myth. Sure to find out how many others are leaving would be good background information - as well as understanding why they would be leaving. Sorry to be so focused but if I wasn't, the point tends to get lost in the noise.

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But that doesn't really prove anything. And it's counter-intuitive - the taxes on the rich are higher in most of the places these people are moving to than they are in the US.

You also probably have the causation reversed. If you make less than $90,000 a year, you don't pay dual taxes. You only pay them in your country of residence. Therefore, people who aren't rich have no reason to renounce their citizenship over taxes, because they aren't being dual-taxed. Only the rich have a reason to do it.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

toddwv said:

You're missing the point. They're not leaving. They have already left. The article states that they are renouncing their US citizenships because they have lived in another country and plan to stay there and no longer feel it's worth paying dual taxes to retain their citizenship.

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Businesses leave California
193 Businesses Leave California in 2010: 4X Previous Year | UNCOVERAGE.net

Now, why might they do that?
http://www.californiascapitol.com/blog/2010/07/many-reasons-why-businesses-close-down-or-leave-california/

And look, population trends
California population growth slows - SFGate

Meanwhile, states with low or no business tax rate and low or no state-level income taxes are booming in comparison. I wonder if there's a correllation....

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

Misterveritis said:

Taxing the rich is such an easy answer to every problem. It requires no critical thought. And only one little knee jerk reaction.

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So far the only options parties are giving are... tax the rich or shut the government down. OK, lets see... does shutting the gov down require any critical thought? I don't think so, and I think it is a knee jerk reaction. It's also cowardly to boot. The GOP Isn't willing to debate or offer any other solutions, so they are just throwing their hands up and crying. They basically want to go home and expect the problem to fix itself.

I voted for the GOP before, but as long as this **** continues to go on and on... I can't bring myself to vote for them again. They cling to the past and shut down in crises, because they are afraid to step out and offer something new and revolutionary for the party and the country. The only person that recently took a risk and tried to be an actual leader with a new idea had a publicly unfavorable idea, and got his ass beat down for trying to kill medicade. The party shouldn't conform to the party, it should conform to the people. The best reason to vote GOP is because it's not Obama, it's not Kerry, it's the lesser evil, or at least they don't support the gays or murdering babies. You sir, have most likely conformed to the party and are a republican through and though and through and through and through. Everything they say is right, yeah?

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

toddwv said:

Yeah, just like "the plan" has worked for the past 11 years. Declining wages, anemic job growth and an infrastructure that is being allowed to rot around our ears. Hey, at least we can still spend trillions of dollars on unnecessary warfare, amiright?

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Not investing in infrastructure really ticks me off... China is investing in it. Their country is going to so much more technologically advanced, actually have manufacturing (courtesy of us), own our debt, own our future, and be in a better position to end their dependence on oil.

I am really pissed... :2mad:

Sure the debt is a damn problem in this country. We shouldn't sell our future, but we shouldn't be too cowardly to invest in it either. Imagine if our debt was accumulated because we actually investment 2+ trillion in our infrastructure, instead of incurring that debt so some ****ing millionaires could pay less taxes and we could go into two ****ing wars.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

SheWolf said:

So far the only options parties are giving are... tax the rich or shut the government down. OK, lets see... does shutting the gov down require any critical thought? I don't think so, and I think it is a knee jerk reaction. It's also cowardly to boot. The GOP Isn't willing to debate or offer any other solutions, so they are just throwing their hands up and crying. They basically want to go home and expect the problem to fix itself.

I voted for the GOP before, but as long as this **** continues to go on and on... I can't bring myself to vote for them again. They cling to the past and shut down in crises, because they are afraid to step out and offer something new and revolutionary for the party and the country. The only person that recently took a risk and tried to be an actual leader with a new idea had a publicly unfavorable idea, and got his ass beat down for trying to kill medicade. The party shouldn't conform to the party, it should conform to the people. The best reason to vote GOP is because it's not Obama, it's not Kerry, it's the lesser evil, or at least they don't support the gays or murdering babies. You sir, have most likely conformed to the party and are a republican through and though and through and through and through. Everything they say is right, yeah?

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I wish the MN lawmakers could do what CA did. I just don't know how CA did an end-run around the Republicans who refused to budge.

Maybe the National budget could follow suit.

Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

SheWolf said:

Not investing in infrastructure really ticks me off... China is investing in it. Their country is going to so much more technologically advanced, actually have manufacturing (courtesy of us), own our debt, own our future, and be in a better position to end their dependence on oil.

I am really pissed... :2mad:

Sure the debt is a damn problem in this country. We shouldn't sell our future, but we shouldn't be too cowardly to invest in it either. Imagine if our debt was accumulated because we actually investment 2+ trillion in our infrastructure, instead of incurring that debt so some ****ing millionaires could pay less taxes and we could go into two ****ing wars.

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They invest at the suffering of their people. Citizens in China work for almost nothing, in horrid conditions...while the Chinese govt. spends money on bridges and factories and cities that sit empty until they rot. Yeah, let's do a LOT of that. Sounds perfect.

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Ockham said:

Huh... some myth.

More Rich Americans Renounce U.S. Citizenship for Lower Taxes - DailyFinance

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It's really a "so what" comment.

From your article:

"Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations," according to the U.S. State Department's website. "In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship will not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad."

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Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

tessaesque said:

A "few percentage increases" isn't enough to close the budget gap. If they're the goose laying the golden egg you'd have to tax them at a significantly higher rate. As California has clearly displayed, punishing the wealthy through higher taxes makes them leave. So yeah, I can guarantee it. If they are taxed too heavily they will leave.

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Where do billionaires go when they leave? Europe has high taxes... everywhere that isn't 3rd or 2nd world has high taxes. I am just really interested where they'd go. There are also millionaires in Europe, so they aren't moving out nor have I ever heard that they are leaving in droves. I also know that some cities and townships have really ****ing high tax rates and property taxes, but people live there and choose to all the time.

In fact, your state, Texas, I am told, has super high property taxes but people still choose to live there and buy property there. Alaska is the same... Alaska has no taxes for individuals, just super high property taxes.

I know why people live in the local cities and townships here and pay high taxes.... it's because of the things the cities do with those taxes. Really good schools is usually top of the list. In Alaska every person gets an oil dividend or tax credit, so even though they pay super high property taxes they get something back.

It's the whole, you get what you pay for thing... and America is starting to resemble a second world country IMHO. China is going to surpass us, and they are investing in their country. I don't want to pay higher taxes and feel like I am living in a country that is falling apart, but I would be willing to living in a country that is moving ahead and investing in itself and pay taxes. If you use 100% percent of the tax revenues to simply pay off the debt and let everything else crumble, people are going to be pissed and not enjoy living in America. The country has to be desirable to live in. We want our kids to have opportunities in the future, and want opportunities.