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Thread: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds over

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    Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

    Dayton continued: I offered a plan to raise the taxes of only those Minnesotans who make more than $1 million per year. That is less than 0.3% of the state population. Despite many hours of negotiations, the Republican caucus remains adamantly opposed to new taxes.

    Earlier in the week, Gov. Dayton said a deal would have to be done by Wednesday in order to draft and pass the necessary legislation. But Thursday, the governor continued meeting with GOP leaders on-and-off trying to put an agreement in place.

    At around 10 p.m. Thursday evening Gov. Dayton rejected a two page temporary funding deal from the GOP leadership that would keep the Minnesota government operational for an additional 10 days.

    "There are a lot of people on the steps of the Capitol right now asking us to not shut down the government. This document is their answer, Koch said referring to the lights-on bill.

    When asked his response to the 10-day temporary funding bill, Gov. Daytons answer was frank and clear: I think its a publicity stunt, he replied.
    He's right. It is.

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    Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Did you call the dems cowards when they left the state to avoid debating/voting on the union buster bill Scott Walker was trying to push? Just curious.
    The dems are incredible cowards too... If either party dropped their party's dogma and stopped fearing the political consequences from other politicians and worried about the actual people and the country for a change, we'd be in a better place today.

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    Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    As I stated in another post, I don't address generalities and assumptions.
    I'd like to know where most of the millionaires and billionaires move to... BTW, point out my generalities and assumptions? You made a claim, I want more details about that claim.

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    Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It proves it's not a myth. That was my only point. If you cannot get that yet or are trying to disprove some nuance, go ahead. But that was not my intent.
    The article fails to support your point regardless of your intent.
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    Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

    So you have never been to China, and expect us to take your third rate sources as the mean. Are there ghost towns in China? Probably (although i have never seen them in person). Are there ghost towns all over the world? Of course there are! Take a trip to Toledo Ohio for a local example.

    However, such instances are outliers and do not represent the mean.

    Also; there is no need to straw man with the quality of life argument.
    Last edited by Kushinator; 07-01-11 at 01:24 PM.
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    Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

    Quote Originally Posted by toddwv View Post
    The article fails to support your point regardless of your intent.
    I question your ability to process information and comprehend and not the article. You believe what you want - it's a free country.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    So you have never been to China, and expect us to take your third rate sources as the mean. Are there ghost towns in China? Probably (although i have never seen them in person). Are there ghost towns all over the world? Of course there are! Take a trip to Toledo Ohio for a local example.

    However, such instances are outliers and do not represent the mean.

    Also; there is no need to straw man with the quality of life argument.
    Quality of life isn't a strawman argument, perhaps you should look up the definitions.

    As far as third rate sources? Here are a few more. Perhaps you'll recognize the organizations:

    Why China's Ghost Towns Matter for Our Economy - Derek Thompson - Business - The Atlantic

    And Now Presenting: Amazing Satellite Images Of The Ghost Cities Of China

    Ordos, China: A Modern Ghost Town - Photo Essays - TIME

    China's Ghost Cities: Could The Real Estate Bubble Burst? (VIDEO)

    A Ghost Town in China - Slide Show - NYTimes.com

    Ghost Towns In China Due to Property Bubble - Robert Lenzner - StreetTalk - Forbes

    Also, let's not forget....these ghost towns were built and never populated. Toledo used to be populated and has since seen some decline in some areas. Nothing on par with the size and scope of these Chinese towns.
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    Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I'd like to know where most of the millionaires and billionaires move to... BTW, point out my generalities and assumptions? You made a claim, I want more details about that claim.
    How about some of this??

    And now it seems you are telling me we have to let China pass us up, because it can ONLY be done on the backs of the people... slave laboring with zero workers rights? America didn't build infrastructure that way, never did.
    This is an assumption based on....not sure what. I never said that. Never even implied it.

    But it's ironic to notice that you are conservative and the GOP is trying to hamper worker rights in this country,
    This is a generalization or stereotype of the GOP and is quite untrue, and merely a matter of biased perspective

    however, your attitude is still... we can't compete with China, we can't have modern, state of the art infrastructure.
    An assumption of my attitude, based on a statement I never made.

    Sounds to me like the GOP's attitude is to weaken worker rights for the sake of budgeting, but won't use any proceeds to invest in the country. They won't anything to invest in the country.
    Generalization AND assumption based, again, on a biased perspective of the GOP's intent. This is a typical and often indefensible (with facts) argument used to villianize the GOP for having a different idea on how to improve our country.

    but it begs the question, why don't you believe in investing in America and when will be the time?
    An assumption based, again, on an argument I never made.

    Answer your question? Basically, that entire post was assumption, generalization, and opinions....all presented as facts..or at least, presented as something you're so sure of that you treat it as fact.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

    Quote Originally Posted by toddwv View Post
    You can't guarantee squat. It's a myth that the wealthy pack their stuff up and leave just because of a few percentage increases in tax rates.
    I am near rich. Taxes were clearly in my calculus before I moved to Alabama. California no longer gets to rape me.

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    Re: Minn. braces for shutdown at midnight; Democratic gov and GOP lawmakers at odds o

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Perhaps you mean generating? Nobody "invented" electricity. Ben Franklin discovered conductivity, Edison discovered how to use it to generate light...either one of them received government money that I'm aware of. As for the rest of your post, I'm not responding to assumptions and generalizations because they're a waste of time and, quite frankly, you wouldn't listen anyway.
    No, I meant inventing as in inventing electricity and electrical technology for the purpose of mass consumption. As for everything else I said, I am entitled to my opinion. This is debate thread after all. And how do the hell you know I wouldn't listen? As long as we stay on topic, then it's fair to discuss. If you want to turn this into a historical debate about my opinions then that wouldn't be on topic.

    I did not say we can't compete with China. My point was that China is doing things the wrong way. They're investing in infrastructure but not in people. People suffer, infrastructure is going to waste, money is being wasted, and the people are no better for it. What does it matter if they have state of the art cities but nobody living in them??? To say "China's doing this and we should too" is a very generalized, vague argument.
    I am cautious of entering a discuss if it starts out, I didn't say this or that and I refuse to discuss that, but oh well... what the hell. I just expect respect and no bull****. Your approach is you want an actual honest debate, so here it is. I expect the same.

    I am not praising China or expecting anybody else too. China isn't perfect, but China is surpassing us and will in our lifetime. That is a fact. They are investing in the infrastructure and technology at a faster rate than us. You say China isn't doing it right, I won't debate that... your opinion. All I am saying is that America needs to invest in infrastructure to keep up with the rest of the world, to get off of foreign oil, and to have quality of life comparable to the rest of the world in the future. We can't afford to have the attitude that it isn't worth it. You seem to agree. Ok, next.

    Should we invest in infrastructure? Sure! Should we penalize people do to it, like China does? Hell no! Should we create super state-of-the-art cities that nobody can afford to live in? Absolutely not!
    I don't want to be like China... I want to be better than China.

    When the money doesn't exist, changes have to be made. We can't keep paying for everything everybody wants when the money doesn't exist. Do you buy your son a brand new graphics computer for college at $1600 when the mortgage is due and you're $300 short? That computer would sure help him, but so does having a house. Tough decisions have to made by familes, and the government is no different. We can raise taxes every day on everybody above poverty but it won't solve the problem.

    Cuts are necessary. Spending is out of control, and yet the problems still exist. Do you ever stop to ask why? Do you ever even consider the fact that maybe money isn't the biggest or even most important problem in poor performance? Do you ever consider that maybe, just maybe, we spend so much time focusing on their message of cuts and punishment of the poor for lack of resources that we're missing for the forest for the trees? We don't ask them to justify the spending because they've convinced us we need it. But are we seeing results?
    You don't address generalizations, but you're full of them.

    Yes, like you said, we have a host problems facing the country, long term and short term problems. The immediate concern in the recession, which isn't the same as the government spending money. We need to fix the recession first, then fixing government spending will be easier. We also need to change what we spend money on, and that is where the actual meat of the debate comes in.

    The fact is once the nation gets employment rates back up, more people will be productive and the amount of people paying taxes will increase. The amount of people consuming goods in the free market will increase, so that will mean economic growth. Once we start getting economic growth, then meeting our debt obligations will be more practical.

    Attacking public sector workers or shutting down the government like in Minnesota is not going to help the recession, the debt, or deficit. It will cost the state money, and firing public sector workers will put more people on unemployment and government assistance.

    You're basically taking them off the government's right tit and putting them on the left.

    The difference is when they are productive and working in the public sector, they are producing services and goods and being innovative, all of which has more positive ramifications on the private sector than sitting on the couch and collecting gov assistance.

    Investing in the country is a long term position and will require spending.

    The government employing people requires spending.

    The government firing people requires spending.

    If the government shuts down, it still costs money.


    We put ourselves in the position to begin with... We spent on the wrong things. As long as we spend money and undertake massive investment projects there will be a debt and a deficit, but we should have a deficit that shows for something. Don't you agree?

    I don't think spending on wars was a wise economic decision, nor is giving wealthy tax payers huge tax breaks along ON TOP OF giving middle income tax payers massive tax credits like EIC. All of this was during much the Bush Admin. Sure, the people are ****ing loving it up and they are spoiled, but it's simply not sustainable.

    What the Bush Admin did was decide to not pay the mortgage and buy computers for all the kids. Now the kids are spoiled, and the GOP is too damn scared to put their damn foot down and say no, enough is enough.

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