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Milwaukee schools to lay off 354 teachers

Helix said:
my state cut hundreds of millions in education funding. that's one of the last areas that i would cut.

a school is not like a corporation. a corporation can discontinue a poorly performing product; schools cannot and should not. teaching to the test for merit pay will not result in better students; it will result in teachers who don't want to take on the students who need the most help.
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If one cannot afford the public sector union teachers then fire them. Close down schools. Consolidate. Privatize. Live within your means. Be adults.
 
Misterveritis said:
If one cannot afford the public sector union teachers then fire them. Close down schools. Consolidate. Privatize. Live within your means. Be adults.
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I know that's the way you guys want it. Take education away from the poor, too. That way, they'll stay that way. It's already been done to college, why not elementary school, too!

That way we can consolidate the wealth even further until we become more like Namibia and less like Jamaica (whose GINI score is almost the same as ours). God knows we don't want to be like other developed nations (such as Denmark, Japan, the Czech Republic - nations that actually have something resembling parity.

When did anarchy become so popular here? I swear it's like Lord of the Flies is starting to become a parable for this country.
 
digsbe said:
We should never be making cuts to education unless there is proven wast in some area of the education budget. Cuts do have to be made, but it's where they are made that is important.
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I agree with you... I think they should have kicked people off of welfare or something first
 
Meanwhile the taxpayers in Milwaukee Wisconsin appear to have spent well over 1.5 billion on the war in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001.

Sorry to all the Wisconsin residents, but it seems there are more important things to spend the money on besides you and your children.
 
krickitt said:
Our kids have already had the horrible cuts. When was the last time kids could get art, music, PE, FREE?? Not for a long time. Streamlining the schools will not hurt any worse, not in MY state. Want to help education in AZ?? Get rid of the illegals and their ESL kids. THAT is where our money goes. Get rid of free breakfast and lunch for kids already on food stamps-- make their parents feed them, which we pay them to do-- with food stamps. And can the free after school programs, too. Let their parents take care of them, like the rest of us not on welfare do. Deal with it. No more free stuff.
Hey, I'm in Arizona, what can I say?
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I think your just assuming things unless you have really looked at the budget yourself. We really have no idea how much that stuff costs in comparison to wages for teachers, utilities, other labor wages, fuel costs to run buses, etc.
 
Boo Radley said:
I don't anyone who would disagree with this, the problem of not having enough in some areas not withstanding.
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Nobody would disagree with that. What I really despise is that we have all these dumb ass politicians, many of whom have little to no education in economics, leading this discussion. It's basically the blind and ignorant leading the blind and ignorant.
 
BDBoop said:
And I will say it again. I hope every teacher that wasn't laid off either leaves the state or goes into another line of work.
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That will surely help those poor kids everybody is talking about.
 
DemonMyst said:
I hope it is your children that no longer get an education.. Grats on advocating children and our nations future to pay for republican mismanagement..
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They would be much better off with hiring classroom proctors to oversee the children. They watch DVD's of the course material and take tests, the ones who score high enough on the aptitude test, get the opportunity for a charter schools and a real education. This way we don't pay for kids who won't try with disengaged parents who simply don't care..
 
"Sir, there are two passions which have a powerful influence in the affairs of men. These are ambition and avarice; the love of power and the love of money."

-Benjamin Franklin at the Constitutional Convention in 1787
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Both the love of power and the love of money are certainly the deciding factors when it comes to the destruction of the public school system. It has become just another fountain of wealth to be exploited by the unscrupulous while the good ones within the system and the students are help hostage to their ambition and greed.

I know plenty of good, conservative teachers. If they speak their opinions it's as if the jaws of hell open up and hate spews forth until they are intimidated back into silence or driven away.

I am also hearing of more and more students who are intimidated into silence on their conservative views and who are treated and graded unfairly by teachers for those views. Their parents are likewise intimidated if they have no other options for education.

Because, it is true, the love of money IS the root of all evil.

It shows in the United States school system.
 
Marshabar said:
Both the love of power and the love of money are certainly the deciding factors when it comes to the destruction of the public school system. It has become just another fountain of wealth to be exploited by the unscrupulous while the good ones within the system and the students are help hostage to their ambition and greed.

I know plenty of good, conservative teachers. If they speak their opinions it's as if the jaws of hell open up and hate spews forth until they are intimidated back into silence or driven away.

I am also hearing of more and more students who are intimidated into silence on their conservative views and who are treated and graded unfairly by teachers for those views. Their parents are likewise intimidated if they have no other options for education.

Because, it is true, the love of money IS the root of all evil.

It shows in the United States school system.
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What exactly are the conservative viewpoints that they have to be silent about?
 
I know plenty of good, conservative teachers. If they speak their opinions it's as if the jaws of hell open up and hate spews forth until they are intimidated back into silence or driven away.

I am also hearing of more and more students who are intimidated into silence on their conservative views and who are treated and graded unfairly by teachers for those views. Their parents are likewise intimidated if they have no other options for education.
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It's always "I hear this happening more and more but I have no proof I'm just basing that on anecdotal evidence and my biased inclinations."
 
It sounds more to me like like more teachers need to be fired than are being laid off.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
It's always "I hear this happening more and more but I have no proof I'm just basing that on anecdotal evidence and my biased inclinations."
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In all honesty, my experience is a little different. I have seen far more of conservative students demanding that other views be silenced, and see any actual discussion as attacking their beliefs. Once you buy into the belief that you're a picked on subsect, you can no longer listen without wrongly percieving everything as an attack.
 
Boo Radley said:
Not the point. Listen carefully. Spending money more wisely would not be objected to. Having a plan to do better would not see me complain. But just cutting teachers with no plan to spend more wisely, well that **** is only about what you value. You invest not only money, but time and effort into what you value. If you value the rich, you fight to make sure they never see a tax increase. Start all kinds of threads defending those poor, por abused people. And you demonize working folk and those who teach. It is about what you value and what you don't.
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I'll listen carefully when you say something of value .

It is exactly the point, the liberal view has always been spend more and tax more, period. It has never been to fix something .. or spend more wisely … just tax and keep spending.
You keep talking of those things that someone values, I value a lot of things, one of the things I value the most is getting value for my money, including my tax dollars.
In years past we have given into teachers and their unions time and time again . Our costs have been rising steadily, yet our kids are not benefiting from this added cost, the quality of their education is worse then it was, as is shown by our sinking rating against other countries. So while I value education, I'm not getting any value for the money being spent on education.

According to you and your ideals this is stupid … and thats fine you are entitled to your opinions, and you can go right on blaming the rich for all our problems as is the liberal way. But expecting everyone to fall in line with your thinking .. is just as stupid...My opinion is for the last years we have done it your way, and kept spending and spending and it hasn't gotten any better, it's time to try something else.

The rest of your post was just the usual pure nonsense of the liberal talking points I didn't defend the rich and I didn't demomize the working class. You should take a class in comprehension … I said simply put .. we need to fix the problem... and “stop” throwing money at it because that isn't working.

Oh.. and just so you can have something to respond to .. in you usual liberal outrage .. I damn well do value the rich … if we are to get out of this mess they will lead the way with jobs, something only they have the money to provide us with. Unless you think those hard working teachers making 50 grand a year are suddenly going to start employing people and paying them a living wage.
 
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The Barbarian said:
I'll listen carefully when you say something of value .

It is exactly the point, the liberal view has always been spend more and tax more, period.
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I think you are operating from a mindless sterotype which prevents you actually addressing the issue. This is not liberals versus conservatives in any real way. Too often, as noted earlier, we have the ignorant and blind leading the ignorant and blind. NCLB was just such a effort, model after a silly texas program and signed off by prominate democrats who did not understand it beyond the simple meaning of the words no Child Left Behind. Such ignorance has it's consequences as well.

If you want to argue that money be spent more wisely, I'm with you. Only an idiot believes that money spend without a plan is proper. But it is no more intelligent to merely cut funds with no real plan. In fact, it may be worse as the cuts will likely come on the wrong places, causing harm to those least able to fight for their proper need.

So, instead of bowing before the alter of mindless sterotypes, how about you think just a little more, and ask that you leaders do more than just cut, but instead have a plan, a real plan, one that does more good than harm. Ask that they invest proeprly, in what we value, as that is what our investments speak to, what we truely value.
 
Boo Radley said:
I think you are operating from a mindless sterotype which prevents you actually addressing the issue. This is not liberals versus conservatives in any real way. Too often, as noted earlier, we have the ignorant and blind leading the ignorant and blind. NCLB was just such a effort, model after a silly texas program and signed off by prominate democrats who did not understand it beyond the simple meaning of the words no Child Left Behind. Such ignorance has it's consequences as well.

If you want to argue that money be spent more wisely, I'm with you. Only an idiot believes that money spend without a plan is proper. But it is no more intelligent to merely cut funds with no real plan. In fact, it may be worse as the cuts will likely come on the wrong places, causing harm to those least able to fight for their proper need.

So, instead of bowing before the alter of mindless sterotypes, how about you think just a little more, and ask that you leaders do more than just cut, but instead have a plan, a real plan, one that does more good than harm. Ask that they invest proeprly, in what we value, as that is what our investments speak to, what we truely value.
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And you aren't operating from a mindless stereotype?? Then why did you bring up me defending the rich and demonizing the working class, when I never said any such thing ?? I guess it's okay of you as a liberal to be mindless …

Here is the problem with the states, they have over 2 trillion dollars of debt from just the unions pension funds … they unlike our federal government by state law “must” pass balanced budgets, also unlike the feds they can't just print the money to get them by. So cuts must be made .. and what better place to cut then where much of the problem lies ?
As I said before I believe the layoff of teachers was just a political slam to get back at Walker, it seems that other districts managed their cuts and didn't need to lay anyone off
If you want to find fault with why those pensions are causing so much trouble … there is enough to go around .. teachers and government alike .. lets not forget who we are dealing with here .. these are teachers .. they should know better then most when something is economically sound, or were they just to greedy to worry about it? Government rather then standing up to the unions just caved and gave them what they wanted .. passing the buck down the road with creative book keeping and lies to keep getting elected ..
The bottom line is when you have two parties that don't care about the kids .. or the future and are only interesting in what they can get ….. it has to end sometime .. and that time has turned out to be now..... and now cuts have to be made … and the proof is in the fact that there are Democratic controlled states that are cutting as well.
 
The Barbarian said:
And you aren't operating from a mindless stereotype?? Then why did you bring up me defending the rich and demonizing the working class, when I never said any such thing ?? I guess it's okay of you as a liberal to be mindless …

Here is the problem with the states, they have over 2 trillion dollars of debt from just the unions pension funds … they unlike our federal government by state law “must” pass balanced budgets, also unlike the feds they can't just print the money to get them by. So cuts must be made .. and what better place to cut then where much of the problem lies ?
As I said before I believe the layoff of teachers was just a political slam to get back at Walker, it seems that other districts managed their cuts and didn't need to lay anyone off
If you want to find fault with why those pensions are causing so much trouble … there is enough to go around .. teachers and government alike .. lets not forget who we are dealing with here .. these are teachers .. they should know better then most when something is economically sound, or were they just to greedy to worry about it? Government rather then standing up to the unions just caved and gave them what they wanted .. passing the buck down the road with creative book keeping and lies to keep getting elected ..
The bottom line is when you have two parties that don't care about the kids .. or the future and are only interesting in what they can get ….. it has to end sometime .. and that time has turned out to be now..... and now cuts have to be made … and the proof is in the fact that there are Democratic controlled states that are cutting as well.
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I brought it up aas a response to your mindless sterotype effort. I had hoped that you would see how silly it was. Instead, you just dug into the sterotype.

While I don't accept that teacher poensions are as large a problem as you accept, I would argue if that is the problem, address that problem. yes, there is enough blame to go around, but so far the solutions have been to hurt not only teachers, but children, as classes will likely be larger, less money for them, as the system hasn't been touched, and nothing done to spend smarter, not more.

Now, while I can't say neither party cares about children, I can say they respond more to pressure from special intest groups than to the actual issues. This leaves business and unions dong more and getting more than children are. While unions are no more evil than business leaders, harming us not one bit more, thus no more deserving of anyone's rage than business, the fact is our leaders should be above both, and geared more toward problem solving. What I argue here is about us, what do we value? If we value education and children, we should not accept these blind, untarget cuts and should demand more, demand a plan.

If you want to run around demonizing liberals, all the while not seeing how easily you can be demonized by your support of business, I can't stop you. But do try to see what I'm actually arguing.
 
Boo Radley said:
I brought it up aas a response to your mindless sterotype effort. I had hoped that you would see how silly it was. Instead, you just dug into the sterotype.

While I don't accept that teacher poensions are as large a problem as you accept, I would argue if that is the problem, address that problem. yes, there is enough blame to go around, but so far the solutions have been to hurt not only teachers, but children, as classes will likely be larger, less money for them, as the system hasn't been touched, and nothing done to spend smarter, not more.

Now, while I can't say neither party cares about children, I can say they respond more to pressure from special intest groups than to the actual issues. This leaves business and unions dong more and getting more than children are. While unions are no more evil than business leaders, harming us not one bit more, thus no more deserving of anyone's rage than business, the fact is our leaders should be above both, and geared more toward problem solving. What I argue here is about us, what do we value? If we value education and children, we should not accept these blind, untarget cuts and should demand more, demand a plan.

If you want to run around demonizing liberals, all the while not seeing how easily you can be demonized by your support of business, I can't stop you. But do try to see what I'm actually arguing.
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-chuckles- you just can't stop can you ? Wisconson and other states are doing just that .. addressing the problem of over 2 trillion dollars of debt from the union pension funds ...addressing the problems of less income because of lower home values, and loss revenue because of the higher rate of unemployment .. they are addressing that problem by cutting spending. Much the same as any responsible person would do with his own budget when or if he was to have his income lowered ...

Now are you denying that the liberal policy has always been tax and spend ??
 
The Barbarian said:
-chuckles- you just can't stop can you ? Wisconson and other states are doing just that .. addressing the problem of over 2 trillion dollars of debt from the union pension funds ...addressing the problems of less income because of lower home values, and loss revenue because of the higher rate of unemployment .. they are addressing that problem by cutting spending. Much the same as any responsible person would do with his own budget when or if he was to have his income lowered ...

Now are you denying that the liberal policy has always been tax and spend ??
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No, they really are not, at least not effectively. What we see here is just a cut, costing jobs, and not addressing the issues. And actually, responsible people don't just cut spending. They often attack revenue as well. I have at times took a second job to add revenue, and I doubt I'm the only one. Attacking one side of the issue is not often as effective as attacking both.

Well, I would deny that only liberals spend. Frankly, both parties spend. And I would consider tax and spend much preferable to tax cut and spend. ;)

And I wouldn add, if I had to choose between which spending I prefer, I prefer the money spent here, on our teachers, our students, our health care than building up nations in Afghanistan and Iraq. Values. What do you value?
 
Boo Radley said:
(CNN) -- In a budget-cutting move likely to be echoed around the country, Milwaukee Public Schools said Wednesday it will lay off 519 staff members -- including 354 teachers -- because of $84 million in state cuts and the system's efforts to control costs.

Milwaukee schools to lay off 354 teachers - CNN.com

Cuts have consequences.
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This is what I don't get. We know that the teachers pay has a mimumal effect on budget, and it is in fact administrative cost that lead to the exploding educational budget. This is caused by everyone wanting their own "district." Why not just combine all the small districts and fire people who are, in effect, useless and an actual drain on the system? All firing teachers will do is make bad schools worse and make good school bad.
 
xpiher said:
This is what I don't get. We know that the teachers pay has a mimumal effect on budget, and it is in fact administrative cost that lead to the exploding educational budget. This is caused by everyone wanting their own "district." Why not just combine all the small districts and fire people who are, in effect, useless and an actual drain on the system? All firing teachers will do is make bad schools worse and make good school bad.
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I could support something like that. Any idea why it isn't proposed?
 
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