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Thread: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

  1. #41
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about parents. Also, parents don't have to "idoctrinate" children into acquiring cultural norms. They are called cultural norms because they are picked up (or in some cases rejected) by general interaction with the culture. Parents don't teach their children everything about their culture, it is picked up from a variety of interactions -- not just the parents, and usually not consciously.
    You are back pedaling and twisting. YOU said that this was "forcing change" and "push[ing] an agenda on children." The parents have chosen this school. Who is guilty of forcing this if not the parents?

    Your etymology is pathetic too. They are called cultural norms because they describe behaviors viewed as normal within a culture.


    Well, you misunderstood me and imposed your own exaggeration onto what I was saying. "Trying something different" is a bit of an understatement.
    BS!

    And? Do you want to respond to what I actually said?
    Do you want to stand behind what you said or would you like to retract it?

  2. #42
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    You are back pedaling and twisting. YOU said that this was "forcing change" and "push[ing] an agenda on children." The parents have chosen this school. Who is guilty of forcing this if not the parents?
    You originally twisted what I was saying; the original issue was not "who is guilty of pushing an agenda," anyway. If you'll go back and look at what I posted, the issue I was going at was that any individual attempt at meddling won't have the intended effect, and it is arrogant to attempt to erase the concept of gender roles in our culture when they are a feature of every human culture.

    Your etymology is pathetic too. They are called cultural norms because they describe behaviors viewed as normal within a culture.
    Well, why don't you think a little on that and what it means. Then maybe you'll understand my point.

    How exactly do you think cultural norms are transmitted/learned?

    Do you want to stand behind what you said or would you like to retract it?
    Why would I retract? You haven't offered any substantive counter-argument yet. You're just throwing up irrelevancies about who I think is to blame and whining about etymology. Personally, I'd rather just discuss the topic of the thread.

  3. #43
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    You originally twisted what I was saying; the original issue was not "who is guilty of pushing an agenda," anyway. If you'll go back and look at what I posted, the issue I was going at was that any individual attempt at meddling won't have the intended effect, and it is arrogant to attempt to erase the concept of gender roles in our culture when they are a feature of every human culture.
    I have not twisted a thing. You are back pedaling.

    Who is to say what is meddling? Is it meddling if you protect your children from cultural norms expressed in an explicit song? How about those expressed in a porno? They don't want gender roles pushed on their children.

    Why is medddling wrong anyway? We are not obligated to adhere to contemporary cultural pressure. Again, you seem to be back to arguing against change.


    Well, why don't you think a little on that and what it means. Then maybe you'll understand my point.

    How exactly do you think cultural norms are transmitted/learned?
    I know exactly what it means.

    Cultural norms are transmitted in different ways. It may be as simple as peer pressure or it could be through violent force. Why do you think that is relevant?

    Why would I retract? You haven't offered any substantive counter-argument yet. You're just throwing up irrelevancies about who I think is to blame and whining about etymology. Personally, I'd rather just discuss the topic of the thread.
    We are discussing the thread and why you are so opposed to cultural change and alternative values.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    And BTW, you are the one that brought up etymology with your sloppy and incoherent attempt to explain why they are called social norms. Like I don't what it means, but then you butcher it.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Who is to say what is meddling? Is it meddling if you protect your children from cultural norms expressed in an explicit song? How about those expressed in a porno? They don't want gender roles pushed on their children.
    So, you don't see a difference between opposing a child listening to explicit lyrics and watching pornos, and trying to avoid the use of (gasp!) gendered pronouns around children?

    Can we have a serious discussion about this?

    Why is medddling wrong anyway? We are not obligated to adhere to contemporary cultural pressure. Again, you seem to be back to arguing against change.
    It is my opinion that this kind of meddling, ie. avoiding the use of gendered pronouns to push an agenda, is ridiculous and will not have the desired effect.

    None of that has anything to do with obligations to adhere to cultural pressure or cultural change.

    I also said it was arrogant because... well, can you give me a good reason why gendered pronouns should not be used to refer to children when everyone else uses them all the time, and all languages include ingrained gender distinctions?


    I know exactly what it means.

    Cultural norms are transmitted in different ways. It may be as simple as peer pressure or it could be through violent force. Why do you think that is relevant?
    Because, as I already mentioned, the child will learn and use the gendered pronouns regardless of the intervention or intentions of those trying to suppress them. That's one reason why the whole idea is ridiculous. And it's not like they are suppressing some obscure aspect of culture; they are suppressing an aspect of culture that is universal to all other cultures on earth.


    We are discussing the thread and why you are so opposed to cultural change and alternative values.
    Pointing out the idiocy of witholding the use of gendered pronouns from children is not the same as opposing cultural change and alternative values... If you want to keep throwing up strawmen, can you at least have a little variety? I mean, c'mon, I already addressed this.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    And BTW, you are the one that brought up etymology with your sloppy and incoherent attempt to explain why they are called social norms. Like I don't what it means, but then you butcher it.
    still complaining about etymology? Look, I was saying that parents don't need to "indoctrinate" their children with norms because they will be picked up on anyway. Cultural norms are learned through any general interaction with a culture... But again, this is all off topic because it was in response to your irrelevant tangent about "who is to blame."

    Back on track now?

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    This is pointless, their parents would obey gender roles, any social interactions outside of this place will have gender roles, and they're bombarded by them in media. I can't see this doing anything, except for becoming redundant the moment kids leave the preschool.
    So follow me into the desert
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    And all the little pigs have God

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    This is pointless, their parents would obey gender roles, any social interactions outside of this place will have gender roles, and they're bombarded by them in media. I can't see this doing anything, except for becoming redundant the moment kids leave the preschool.
    Exactly. If anything, it will have the opposite of the intended effect as the children are exposed to actual society and overcompensate in adjusting. Of course, that's only if the whole scheme has any effect to begin with, which I doubt.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    STOCKHOLM At the "Egalia" preschool, staff avoid using words like "him" or "her" and address the 33 kids as "friends" rather than girls and boys.
    From the color and placement of toys to the choice of books, every detail has been carefully planned to make sure the children don't fall into gender stereotypes.
    "Society expects girls to be girlie, nice and pretty and boys to be manly, rough and outgoing," says Jenny Johnsson, a 31-year-old teacher. "Egalia gives them a fantastic opportunity to be whoever they want to be."
    The taxpayer-funded preschool which opened last year in the liberal Sodermalm district of Stockholm for kids aged 1 to 6 is among the most radical examples of Sweden's efforts to engineer equality between the sexes from childhood onward.


    1st - staff referring to all the kids as "friends" is not the relationship they're supposed to have.

    2nd - I'm surprised no one is questioning the basis for this. They quote a teacher saying that "society expects girls to be girlie, nice and pretty and boys to be manly, rough and outgoing" but is it really like that in 2011 Sweden? I have a hard time believing that. I thought Sweden was one of the more progressive countries out there and she's making it sound like Mayberry in the 1950's. So if it's NOT like that, then why the extreme reaction of removing all gender references toward the children? It's just - puzzling.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    So, you don't see a difference between opposing a child listening to explicit lyrics and watching pornos, and trying to avoid the use of (gasp!) gendered pronouns around children?
    They are all examples of a parent filtering cultural influences.


    It is my opinion that this kind of meddling, ie. avoiding the use of gendered pronouns to push an agenda, is ridiculous and will not have the desired effect.

    None of that has anything to do with obligations to adhere to cultural pressure or cultural change.

    I also said it was arrogant because... well, can you give me a good reason why gendered pronouns should not be used to refer to children when everyone else uses them all the time, and all languages include ingrained gender distinctions?
    It is arrogant because it is different? Whatever. It's just different.


    Because, as I already mentioned, the child will learn and use the gendered pronouns regardless of the intervention or intentions of those trying to suppress them. That's one reason why the whole idea is ridiculous. And it's not like they are suppressing some obscure aspect of culture; they are suppressing an aspect of culture that is universal to all other cultures on earth.
    Yeah, and kids will eventually see naked people and hear curse words. That does not mean you can't try to minimize the influence.

    Pointing out the idiocy of witholding the use of gendered pronouns from children is not the same as opposing cultural change and alternative values... If you want to keep throwing up strawmen, can you at least have a little variety? I mean, c'mon, I already addressed this.
    Your entire argument is that it's different therefore it is somehow wrong. But you can't really explain why it is wrong.

    What is so important about gender roles? What purpose do they serve modern man?

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