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Thread: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    What harm will this do?
    Kids with GID could have the biggest potential for harm in my opinion.
    They're already confused with the outward/inward mismatch, not having a firm gender role model could make it worse.

    Emphasis on could.
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The long childhoods are evolutionary but because it has been with us for so long.
    I do not think it is wise to try to change this, on a mass scale, when there is no proof that it fixes anything.

    We have long childhoods because we invest more in each child than the typical animal does, for survival reasons.
    Teaching is a part of that, but gender roles are not harmful, as long as flexibility exists.
    Close. It's because we tend to be highly intelligent. There's too much for us to innately know, so we need time to learn it.

    That's the point. The majority of gender roles have nothing to do with anything practical or logical. They are simply enforced delineation.

    Some aren't even gender roles, but old top down beliefs on what should be gender roles.
    That's why they are being contested.

    Language derived gender differences (him/her, she/he) wasn't created by fiat, it was done so organically.
    The organic process may appear to be fiat to some, but it isn't. There has been a slow movement towards "xir/xe" as a gender-neutral English pronoun for those who wish to use it for years. I am now seeing it become natural and common within some circles.

    There haven't been much of any done and the long term results haven't been tracked.
    Like this? No. On a parenting level? Yes. Enough that I learned about it in Psych 101.

    If that's the case, why try to change it at all.
    Boys with GID, don't dress like women because it's awesome, they do so because they're internally women, it has a natural appeal to them.
    Because the extremes can be harmful when people are forced into them, which most are. If someone belongs in that extreme, they will go there whether they're taught or not. Teaching it does nothing but harm the ones who don't belong there, which is almost everyone.

    Not all stereotypes should be eliminated, they can be useful.
    But then again not all women should have officially classified gender roles because some do stray from the norm.
    I'm fine with that.

    What I'm not ok with is socializing kids to believe that all people are exactly the same.
    It kills the greatness of the variety of people and their differing genders.
    It is unclear to me whether that is what this school is doing, or whether it is trying to simply let the expression be what it may be without interferrance. If it is the former, than I agree that is way overkill. But I see no definitive evidence that it is.

  3. #33
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Close. It's because we tend to be highly intelligent. There's too much for us to innately know, so we need time to learn it.

    That's the point. The majority of gender roles have nothing to do with anything practical or logical. They are simply enforced delineation.
    Depends on what you consider gender roles to be.
    I'm not talking about 1950's women need to cook crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    The organic process may appear to be fiat to some, but it isn't. There has been a slow movement towards "xir/xe" as a gender-neutral English pronoun for those who wish to use it for years. I am now seeing it become natural and common within some circles.
    Never heard of that til now.
    Language is complex because it communicates many things, including gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Like this? No. On a parenting level? Yes. Enough that I learned about it in Psych 101.
    It's not good to institutionalize this stuff.
    It must be heavily researched before that happens.


    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Because the extremes can be harmful when people are forced into them, which most are. If someone belongs in that extreme, they will go there whether they're taught or not. Teaching it does nothing but harm the ones who don't belong there, which is almost everyone.
    I agree that extremes can be harmful.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    It is unclear to me whether that is what this school is doing, or whether it is trying to simply let the expression be what it may be without interferrance. If it is the former, than I agree that is way overkill. But I see no definitive evidence that it is.
    It's nearly impossible to let expression be, without interference, because they are interfering.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Kids with GID could have the biggest potential for harm in my opinion.
    They're already confused with the outward/inward mismatch, not having a firm gender role model could make it worse.

    Emphasis on could.
    Your argument is circular. You are basically arguing that we should pressure them to follow cutlural norms or they may not accept cultural norms. Any dissonance caused by gender identity is due to pressure to conform some arbitrary norm.

    You don't need a role model to teach you how to be male. You got a penis? You are in! You are doing it right! You need a role model to teach you how to be a good person. A gender role model would only be about promoting conformity to some useless stereotype.
    Last edited by BayToBay; 06-26-11 at 05:06 PM.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    [...]

    Some aren't even gender roles, but old top down beliefs on what should be gender roles.
    That's why they are being contested.

    Language derived gender differences (him/her, she/he) wasn't created by fiat, it was done so organically.[...].
    That's one thing that really seems off about this sort of meddling... to me anyway. The gender roles particular to a culture are similar to the gender assignments in a language, in that they also developed organically over time and naturally change on their own over time as well. Who can point to a specific individual who actually implemented a specific role to any gender? (that is taken seriously over many generations, I'm not talking about fads, etc.)

    All human cultures have specific gender roles, and all also have rules and systems in place for those that violate them, including our own. Why do we feel the need to suddenly and forcefully erase such a thing from our society when they are prevalent in every other? Who has the subjective insight into whether or not such cultural systems are "good" or "bad"? Just how arrogant does one have to be to decide that "We need to do away with this or that part of our culture," and try to force the change... keeping in mind that these are the type of norms which were neither implemented by a specific individual in the first place nor are unique to western culture. I say that its better just to let it be, and not try to force such change... it will not go as the planners who impose such rules expect, and either way, it will happen on its own regardless.
    Last edited by other; 06-26-11 at 05:04 PM.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    That's one thing that really seems off about this sort of meddling... to me anyway. The gender roles particular to a culture are similar to the gender assignments in a language, in that they also developed organically over time and naturally change on their own over time as well. Who can point to a specific individual who actually implemented a specific role to any gender? (that is taken seriously over many generations, I'm not talking about fads, etc.)

    All human cultures have specific gender roles, and all also have rules and systems in place for those that violate them, including our own. Why do we feel the need to suddenly and forcefully erase such a thing from our society when they are prevalent in every other? Who has the subjective insight into whether or not such cultural systems are "good" or "bad"? Just how arrogant does one have to be to decide that "We need to do away with this or that part of our culture," and try to force the change... keeping in mind that these are the type of norms which were neither implemented by a specific individual in the first place nor are unique to western culture. I say that its better just to let it be, and not try to force such change... it will not go as the planners who impose such rules expect, and either way, it will happen on its own anyway.
    Who is forcing the change?

    You argue that gender roles have evolved culturally. Why do you then express anger at the idea of any more evolution in those roles? Mankind's means of survival is changing and it makes no sense that our culture would not continue to evolve.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Who is forcing the change?
    People who try to distort the common use of a language to push an agenda on children, in this case. I think their program will only backfire on them.

    You argue that gender roles have evolved culturally. Why do you then express anger at the idea of any more evolution in those roles? Mankind's means of survival is changing and it makes no sense that our culture would not continue to evolve.
    I wasn't angry at all, I'm just discussing my point of view. And I never said that our culture wouldn't continue to evolve... I said the opposite.

    My overall point was that lasting change concerning something so basic to human culture isn't made on a conscious level by pulling strings here and there, (and thank goodness for that), it happens on its own, regardless of what specific individuals decide is right or wrong about it.
    Last edited by other; 06-26-11 at 05:14 PM.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    This is a ****ed up program that is likely to produce some ****ed up children.

    Bad idea.

    /thread.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    People who try to distort the common use of a language to push an agenda on children, in this case. I think their program will only backfire on them.
    So, if the parents fail to teach them gender roles they are "forcing an agenda" on them while indoctrinating them in cultural norms is not? Okay.

    I wasn't angry at all, I'm just discussing my point of view. And I never said that our culture wouldn't continue to evolve... I said the opposite.

    My overall point was that lasting change concerning something so basic to human culture isn't made on a conscious level by pulling strings here and there, (and thank goodness for that), it happens on its own regardless.
    You were decrying them as arrogant and you mentioned force so many times you made it sound like they were running a concentration camp. But they are just trying something different.

    Gender roles are changing and they should. Our culture is changing, our way of life is changing. Life is change.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    So, if the parents fail to teach them gender roles they are "forcing an agenda" on them while indoctrinating them in cultural norms is not? Okay.
    What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about parents. Also, parents don't have to "idoctrinate" children into acquiring cultural norms. They are called cultural norms because they are picked up (or in some cases rejected) by general interaction with the culture. Parents don't teach their children everything about their culture, it is picked up from a variety of interactions -- not just the parents, and usually not consciously.

    You were decrying them as arrogant and you mentioned force so many times you made it sound like they were running a concentration camp. But they are just trying something different.
    Well, you misunderstood me and imposed your own exaggeration onto what I was saying. "Trying something different" is a bit of an understatement.

    Gender roles are changing and they should. Our culture is changing, our way of life is changing. Life is change.
    And? Do you want to respond to what I actually said?

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