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Thread: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Not entirely true.
    Some gender roles are learned, while others are biological.
    Technically correct but evades the point being made. Nurture for example is a gender role of mothers that is innate. However, most gender roles in society are learned.
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    It's a preschool. A preschool's main objective is to socialize kids, teach them to function in a group. This is an educational tool like any other at that young age and in that particular setting.
    Functioning as a group ≠ teaching that there are no gender roles.

    It's not a tool but a social experiment.
    Tools have proven uses, this has nothing.
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Technically correct but evades the point being made. Nurture for example is a gender role of mothers that is innate. However, most gender roles in society are learned.
    Boys are driven to learn the gender roles from other men.
    Those men have developed those gender roles from other men.

    These men have physical attributes, that have evolved in them, that make it more likely for them to do "man" things better than some women can.
    They are explicitly linked.

    Trying to socialize out gender roles is dumb for a great many things.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Functioning as a group ≠ teaching that there are no gender roles.

    It's not a tool but a social experiment.
    Tools have proven uses, this has nothing.
    Like I said, it's not any better nor worse than what has already been tried before at other progressive preschools. They obviously think it's worth a shot. Parents have the option to send their kid to another public preschool or pay for one that is better suited to their own views.
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That's just not true.
    Some gender roles are entirely evolutionary.

    One of the early ways to associate an internal gender is to express it through outward gender behaviors, from role models.
    Felt (internal) gender and expressed (external) gender are linked, not separate.

    This stuff is not arbitrary, it is a part of identity development.
    Some roles are evolutionary, but even they are taught. This doesn't mean they're necessarily illogical or should be done away with - all roles appeal to some aspect of innate psychology - but they are still taught. So much of social behavior is taught. Why do you think we and most other social mammals have such long childhoods?

    But a lot of gender roles ARE illogical and should be done away with. A lot of them are oppressive, to both men and women. A lot of them are pointless. A lot of them are just blue team vs. pink team.

    Studies on the raising of androgynous children haven't shown any impairment. If anything, such kids tend to be more confident. Their expression takes the form they want it to take, and only goes as far as they want it to go. As opposed to our habit of putting a football in a boy's hands when he's still an infant, or a barbie in a girl's hands at the same age. There are some profoundly negative things those streotypes can encourage if they are harshly enforced, which they often are.

    Identity develops regardless. People born into extremely conservative homes still turn out gay or trans. People who grew up with gay parents still turn out straight and gender normative.

    While I think this program may be a bit overkill, I don't know of anything suggesting it will cause harm. The extremes of the gender scale are unnatural to most people, and we try to force those extremes on most people. That is definitely negative.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Like I said, it's not any better nor worse than what has already been tried before at other progressive preschools. They obviously think it's worth a shot. Parents have the option to send their kid to another public preschool or pay for one that is better suited to their own views.
    I'm very much against top down enforced "social norms" that have little impact for good and much impact for harm on the individual level.
    Not a fan of "educators" with an agenda.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm very much against top down enforced "social norms" that have little impact for good and much impact for harm on the individual level.
    Not a fan of "educators" with an agenda.
    Me neither. I think this gender neutral stuff is a total waste of time. I really don't see any point or any value in what this school is trying to do.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Some roles are evolutionary, but even they are taught. This doesn't mean they're necessarily illogical or should be done away with - all roles appeal to some aspect of innate psychology - but they are still taught. So much of social behavior is taught. Why do you think we and most other social mammals have such long childhoods?
    The long childhoods are evolutionary but because it has been with us for so long.
    I do not think it is wise to try to change this, on a mass scale, when there is no proof that it fixes anything.

    We have long childhoods because we invest more in each child than the typical animal does, for survival reasons.
    Teaching is a part of that, but gender roles are not harmful, as long as flexibility exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    But a lot of gender roles ARE illogical and should be done away with. A lot of them are oppressive, to both men and women. A lot of them are pointless. A lot of them are just blue team vs. pink team.
    Some aren't even gender roles, but old top down beliefs on what should be gender roles.
    That's why they are being contested.

    Language derived gender differences (him/her, she/he) wasn't created by fiat, it was done so organically.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Studies on the raising of androgynous children haven't shown any impairment. If anything, such kids tend to be more confident. Their expression takes the form they want it to take, and only goes as far as they want it to go. As opposed to our habit of putting a football in a boy's hands when he's still an infant, or a barbie in a girl's hands at the same age. There are some profoundly negative things those streotypes can encourage if they are harshly enforced, which they often are.
    There haven't been much of any done and the long term results haven't been tracked.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Identity develops regardless. People born into extremely conservative homes still turn out gay or trans. People who grew up with gay parents still turn out straight and gender normative.
    If that's the case, why try to change it at all.
    Boys with GID, don't dress like women because it's awesome, they do so because they're internally women, it has a natural appeal to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    While I think this program may be a bit overkill, I don't know of anything suggesting it will cause harm. The extremes of the gender scale are unnatural to most people, and we try to force those extremes on most people. That is definitely negative.
    Not all stereotypes should be eliminated, they can be useful.
    But then again not all women should have officially classified gender roles because some do stray from the norm.
    I'm fine with that.

    What I'm not ok with is socializing kids to believe that all people are exactly the same.
    It kills the greatness of the variety of people and their differing genders.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    It's pre-school, I doubt it will seriously impact the children. Also, the parents must clearly know about it if the children are still enrolled.

    I also agree that the education system is one big experiment, filled with indoctrination. That we are used to the typical forms of indoctrination just shows how deeply ingrained it is in our society.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm very much against top down enforced "social norms" that have little impact for good and much impact for harm on the individual level.
    Not a fan of "educators" with an agenda.
    What harm will this do?

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