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Thread: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    It's an example of dropping context. Again, I did not say they were meaningles and had no impact. I questioned their value and purpose. Further, I have indicated that some gender roles still have value, i.e., a woman's role as mother.
    So now you only advocate for the abolition of some gender roles. Are you going to make an exhaustive list of "good" and "bad" words/roles now? And you accuse me of back-pedalling

    Uhh, nooooo, it is not automatic. What are you talking about? You most certainly have to teach language to kids. It is not automatic. It just seems that way because you are not very bright and due to the depth of our submersion into culture and language.
    maybe we can discuss this when you educate yourself on the topic... you're holding a view of language that was abandoned by most prior to the 1930s.


    Bull! You just don't teach them gendered pronouns. How is that more active?
    See above. The use of gendered pronouns isn't specifically taught by anybody, it is picked up automatically as children interact with the language. The only parts of language that are specifically taught are rules exceptions and anomolies in language, such as irregular plural forms, which are often comlpetely counter-intuitive to the rest of the rules of grammar.
    Last edited by other; 06-28-11 at 06:54 PM.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    So now you only advocate for the abolition of some gender roles. Are you going to make an exhaustive list of "good" and "bad" words/roles now? And you accuse me of back-pedalling
    That is nothing but a strawman. I have not called for the "abolition" of any gender role.

    maybe we can discuss this when you educate yourself on the topic... you're holding a view of language that was abandoned by most prior to the 1930s.
    If you want kids to speak the language you speak and not some feral tongue they invent, you have to teach them language. They may take to it easily, they still need instruction and it is not automatic that they speak a specific language.

    See above. The use of gendered pronouns isn't specifically taught by anybody, it is picked up automatically as children interact with the language. The only parts of language that are specifically taught are rules exceptions and anomolies in language, such as irregular plural forms, which are often comlpetely counter-intuitive to the rest of the rules of grammar.
    That's just nonsense. I have seen people instruct kids on the proper use of gender pronouns. Take any foreign language course and they will make sure you know the difference of gender pronouns. Where are you getting that no on teaches this?

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    The great thing about this is that for now, I can still reinforce gender with my kids at home no matter what happens with school cirriculum. And I will. That's not saying I will enforce antiquated roles of homemaking as female or hunting as male. Only that I will enforce the idea of there being males and females, whom are properly referred to as sir, ma'am, his, her, guy, girl, boy lady, woman, man etc.....
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    That is nothing but a strawman. I have not called for the "abolition" of any gender role.
    You could have fooled me.

    What are you getting at, then, with all your talk about how gender roles "serve no purpose" and "have no value," along with your support of the actions to neutralize gender roles in the preschool in the OP?

    If you want kids to speak the language you speak and not some feral tongue they invent, you have to teach them language. They may take to it easily, they still need instruction and it is not automatic that they speak a specific language.

    That's just nonsense. I have seen people instruct kids on the proper use of gender pronouns. Take any foreign language course and they will make sure you know the difference of gender pronouns. Where are you getting that no on teaches this?
    Concerning the learning of foreign languages: Why do you think many parents try to raise their children bi-lingully when they are very young? Past a certain age threshold people generally take to language much less easily, and so have to be taught systematically. Immersion is still better. Young children, however, pick up on languages automatically, through interaction... It is a form of learning, but most of the language is not specifically taught to them. In short, young children and adults learn languages very differently... Young children are much better at it and don't specifically need to be taught all the rules.

    I've never seen a parent have to specifically teach their child to say "him" when referring to a male and "her" when referring to a female. I've never seen any child even corrected for improper use of gendered pronouns, except in the case that the subject's gender is ambiguous in the first place. No one needs a Ph.D in English, or even a high school degree, to raise children that speak fluent English.
    Last edited by other; 06-28-11 at 07:46 PM.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    I have no problem with women being in control.
    Come to the basement so I can call you a poopoohead.
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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    You could have fooled me.

    What are you getting at, then, with all your talk about how gender roles "serve no purpose" and "have no value," along with your support of the actions to neutralize gender roles in the preschool in the OP?
    That there is no great harm in reexamining and questioning gender roles. You guys are flying off the handle because the Swedes are doing something different and that would only make sense if you thought there was something very valuable about gender roles. There does not seem to be anything of that great of value in them to me. Those that are of true value don't need to be supported by gender pronouns, uniforms or stereotypes.

    Concerning the learning of foreign languages: Why do you think many parents try to raise their children bi-lingully when they are very young? Past a certain age threshold people generally take to language much less easily, and so have to be taught systematically. Immersion is still better. Young children, however, pick up on languages automatically, through interaction... It is a form of learning, but most of the language is not specifically taught to them. In short, young children and adults learn languages very differently... Young children are much better at it and don't specifically need to be taught all the rules.
    Immersion does not mean they are not being taught. It is just a way of teaching.

    I've never seen a parent have to specifically teach their child to say "him" when referring to a male and "her" when referring to a female. I've never seen any child corrected on the use of gendered pronouns either, except in the case that the subject's gender is ambiguous in the first place. No one needs a Ph.D in English, or even a high school degree, to raise children that speak fluent English.
    I have seen it and so? You don't have to have a degree in the arts to teach them culture either.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    That there is no great harm in reexamining and questioning gender roles. You guys are flying off the handle because the Swedes are doing something different and that would only make sense if you thought there was something very valuable about gender roles. There does not seem to be anything of that great of value in them to me. Those that are of true value don't need to be supported by gender pronouns, uniforms or stereotypes.
    No one's flying off the handle, just pointing out how ridiculous their attempts are.

    And you did argue that gender roles are meaningless in modern society, now you're saying your position is simply that "there is no great harm in reexamining and questioning gender roles." Big difference between your old position and your new position there. No one here, from what I have read so far, has even argued that reexamining or questioning gender roles is harmful. Most are simply pointing out how attempts to neutralize them, such as in the OP, are a waste of time. Not the same thing.

    Immersion does not mean they are not being taught. It is just a way of teaching.
    Strawman. Notice I said:
    It is a form of learning, but most of the language is not specifically taught to them.
    You don't have to be specifically taught something by another person to learn something. You can also learn through experience/interaction.

    I have seen it and so? You don't have to have a degree in the arts to teach them culture either.
    Notice that I've been saying that language and culture are both learned through interaction, not specific teaching? Are you trying to bring up something pertinent or just contradicting yourself?

    And when's the last time you saw a preschool-age kid sitting down with a verb conjugation chart memorizing pronouns and correct verb endings? Kids are learning language and culture (and so basic gender roles) before they know how to tie their shoes or wipe their own ass, and it's not because every parent hires a language coach to teach them the rules of grammar, one by one.
    Last edited by other; 06-28-11 at 08:18 PM.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    No one's flying off the handle, just pointing out how ridiculous their attempts are.

    And you did argue that gender roles are meaningless in modern society, now you're saying your position is simply that "there is no great harm in reexamining and questioning gender roles." Big difference between your old position and your new position there. No one here, from what I have read so far, has even argued that reexamining or questioning gender roles is harmful. Most are simply pointing out how attempts to neutralize them, such as in the OP, are a waste of time. Not the same thing.
    I don't want to split hairs too much but "meaningless" implies that they have no influence. I clearly did not say that, but questioned what valid purpose or good reason existed for them. That is, I questioned their value.

    Strawman. Notice I said:

    You don't have to be specifically taught something by another person to learn something. You can also learn through experience/interaction.
    Now you are splitting hairs. Children learn it from others. They are taught by others and often the interaction is undertaken with the intent of teaching.


    Notice that I've been saying that language and culture are both learned through interaction, not specific teaching? Are you trying to bring up something pertinent or just contradicting yourself?
    They have classes that teach language and culture in school. I don't even know what sort of point you are trying to make. You seem to think that because we are immersed that the need to transmit information (i.e. to teach) and learn, vanish. It does not, immersion just increases the speed with which the person aquires information.


    And when's the last time you saw a preschool-age kid sitting down with a verb conjugation chart memorizing pronouns and correct verb endings? Kids are learning language and culture (and so basic gender roles) before they know how to tie their shoes or wipe their own ass, and it's not because every parent hires a language coach to teach them the rules of grammar, one by one.
    Not becasue their children are born with knowledge of the subjects. The children must learn this and they are taught. Immersion just makes every interaction a lesson. It does not eliminate the need for lessons.
    Last edited by BayToBay; 06-28-11 at 11:33 PM.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    I don't want to split hairs too much but "meaningless" implies that they have no influence. I clearly did not say that, but questioned what valid purpose or good reason existed for them. That is, I questioned their value.
    Alright, alright. Fine. Question their value then.

    Now, do you see a difference between simply "questioning their value" and "taking pro-active steps to neutralize them for preschoolers?"

    Now you are splitting hairs. Children learn it from others. They are taught by others and often the interaction is undertaken with the intent of teaching.
    I'm not splitting hairs. That's how children learn language. Point stands, constant active intervention, as is needed to deprive a child of gendered pronouns, is not needed for a child to learn normal language. The former is engineering, the latter is a normal process.


    They have classes that teach language and culture in school. I don't even know what sort of point you are trying to make. You seem to think that because we are immersed that the need to transmit information (i.e. to teach) and learn, vanish. It does not, immersion just increases the speed with which the person aquires information.
    See above

    Not becasue their children are born with knowledge of the subjects. The children must learn this and they are taught. Immersion just makes every interaction a lesson. It does not eliminate the need for lessons.
    There's a difference between normal interaction and a specific lesson. Children can learn languages via normal interaction with the speakers of a language as they develop without the need for specific lessons. They don't have to be specifically taught the use or meaning of gendered pronouns, they only need exposure to their use in normal interactions and they pick them up.

    The exceptions, as I already mentioned, are irregular forms and such, but that's not the majority of the language. Proper writing and written grammar are taught with specific lessons as well, because they are learned differently than a spoken language. Humans evolved to speak language at an early age, writing, by comparison, is relative new on the scene.

    Much of a culture is learned the same way as spoken language. To suppress a part of it, such as nerfing gender roles altogether, requires active intervention (social engineering).
    Last edited by other; 06-28-11 at 11:58 PM.

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    Re: No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    I think gender roles interfere in our ability to relate. Women and men see and relate to the world a bit differently and I do believe that is influenced by gender roles and culture.
    Certainly culture differences can inhibit how we relate to each other but being a man I can relate to other men for one reason and to women for another. Perhaps later, once we get to know each other better, we can like or dislike each other for the usual reasons. All cultures have words for stupid, smart, rude, polite, etc. so there are obviously some basics which everyone shares and one of those categories all human beings fall fall into.

    I don't see any advantage in being gender neutral, either from a social or Darwinian point of view.

    Of course you can try it yourself and see what sort of response you get. It might well be a winner in some circles.

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