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Thread: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

  1. #181
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    Re: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    At this point you are clearly so angry and entrenched that you aren't really offering anything substantial to reply to.

    Angry? I am in stitches. I am not laughing with you.

    so I'll simply state some basic things we can expect:


    drug producers would not see the profits they currently see today. on the positive side for them, they could stop worrying about the fortunes they do aquire from being wiped out, but how often do you hear about farmers making fortunes?

    every part of the supply chain will make less money. those who transport it, those who peddle it, those who store it. The sacrifice in earnings will be countered by an increase in stability by again, falling within the law.

    Money spent on law enforcement could go down, but history shows that unlike private sector, government doesn't spend less money simply because they can, so I would asterisk this one.

    Given the above, the end user can expect to spend less money on it, giving them more disposable income. I'm going to throw out the stereo type that pot users on the whole are at the low end of the wage scale, so I see this as a net boon to consumer spending patterns

    As for how to eventually add up all the above, and claim a bubble will form from pot usage is something you have not articulated at all.
    You are clueless. The premium price in a black market does not go toward wealth or growth. It covers the cost of loss due to arrest or being shot by police and the theft and risks of being killed by rival criminals. If black markets produced wealth then the people of the USSR would have been well off.

    You don't understand markets and can't possibly be an advocate of a free market as you are apparently to stupid to understand that it is preferable to a black market.

    And I most certainly did explain how a bubble might emerge. A legal market is open to investment and it would attract quite a bit. The black market is not open to investment. Do I need to cover something even more basic for you?

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    Re: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Angry? I am in stitches. I am not laughing with you.
    I advice you get your anger in check if you plan on remaining in this thread.

    You are clueless. The premium price in a black market does not go toward wealth or growth. It covers the cost of loss due to arrest or being shot by police and the theft and risks of being killed by rival criminals. If black markets produced wealth then the people of the USSR would have been well off.
    prices don't cover the loss created by illegal activity. you can't compare how prices are derived in a free market with an illegal market.

    And I assure you black markets do produce wealth. how much wealth is not easy to gauge since they have to remain hidden.



    You don't understand markets and can't possibly be an advocate of a free market as you are apparently to stupid to understand that it is preferable to a black market.

    And I most certainly did explain how a bubble might emerge. A legal market is open to investment and it would attract quite a bit. The black market is not open to investment. Do I need to cover something even more basic for you?
    I am not arguing for drug laws, I am questioning your "bubble" from removing drug laws.
    Last edited by ARealConservative; 06-27-11 at 11:22 PM.

  3. #183
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    Re: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by sookster View Post
    Driving stoned on pot is probably more safe than driving sober. Marijuana enhances the senses, meaning you can see a little bit more clearly and hear things you typically wouldn't of heard. With my eight years dealing with drug addiction, not once was I in an accident, and I drove stoned pretty much on the regular. Honestly, people that are sleep deprived are probably more dangerous than people who are stoned. Cops aren't pulling over people for being tired are they?

    There is absolutely no argument you can put forth defending the illegalization of marijuana and not deal with the current legal substances of alcohol and tobacco. None.
    this is the kind of reasoning which allows those who oppose the decriminalization of marijuana to feel justified in their views

    yes, driving drunk or sleep deprived is usually more dangerous than driving while baked. but that does not make driving while stoned safer than driving sober
    once the pot prohibition is ended, enforcement of driving while impaired laws will still be necessary in the interest of public safety
    yes, i am an old fart, but an old fart who smoked every day for 37 years. and i drove while stoned, just like i foolishly drove while drunk. got lucky and avoided arrest all those years. but had i been popped for DWI, even tho i would not have liked it, i would have known i brought it on myself
    so, do be a strong advocate for decriminalization. but do not undermine those efforts by conflating the ability to legally BE stoned with the ability to legally DRIVE while stoned. you will only serve the opposition by your efforts
    Last edited by justabubba; 06-27-11 at 11:46 PM. Reason: kant spel
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  4. #184
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    Re: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    By that same logic, we wouldn't have to spend so much on imprisoning murder, if murder was legal.
    Is $100 a good price?
    Can't really say until you know what you'r buying, can you? It's a great price for an acre if it isn't steep as a cow's face. But, it's a rotten price for a stick of gum.
    When we compare the costs of enforcing marijuana laws with the costs of enforcing murder laws, we also need to compare what benefits we acquire when we spend the money too. If we don't look at what we're purchasing, we can't really decide if the price's a good bargain or not.

    I doubt it's necessary to list the benefits of enforcing our laws against murder. They're needless to say.

    But the benefits of arresting people who're just smoking pot are harder to articulate in a convincing way. Sure someone who get intoxicated and then does something dangerous, like drive a motor vehicle, should face penalties for being intoxicated behind the wheel. But the pot smoker who uses responsibly, unlike the drinker who drinks responsibly, faces a prosecution that doesn't seem to serve society very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    My entire point, is that legalization of pot isn't going to make the whole enforcement issue go away.
    Perhaps you're right. Perhaps there will be some enforcement issues still somewhat associated with pot. But I doubt that the enforcement of tax laws at the local farmer's market will really be on the same scale as the current War on Drugs and require the creation of its own federal agency.
    Out of curiosity, apdst, do you happen to know how much we currently spend enforcing marijuana laws?
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by sookster View Post
    Driving stoned on pot is probably more safe than driving sober.
    I have reasonable doubts about this. I'd have to see some very convincing evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by sookster View Post
    Honestly, people that are sleep deprived are probably more dangerous than people who are stoned. Cops aren't pulling over people for being tired are they?
    Not exactly. They pull people over for driving poorly. But yes, they can and do pull you over for driving poorly even if the reason is that you're too tired to be on the road.
    Ask danarhea.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    I advice you get your anger in check if you plan on remaining in this thread.
    Still just laughing at your empty pretense and condescension. I don't need your advice on anything. Keep your two cents, they are overvalued.


    prices don't cover the loss created by illegal activity. you can't compare how prices are derived in a free market with an illegal market.
    Prices don't cover the losses created by the illegal market.

    And I assure you black markets do produce wealth. how much wealth is not easy to gauge since they have to remain hidden.
    The wealth is not hidden. It is being destroyed by the violent nature of the black market. A high income does not lead to wealth without a protection of property rights and life.

    Do you honestly believe that black markets create as much wealth as a free market?

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    Re: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    so I'll simply state some basic things we can expect:

    drug producers would not see the profits they currently see today. on the positive side for them, they could stop worrying about the fortunes they do aquire from being wiped out, but how often do you hear about farmers making fortunes?

    every part of the supply chain will make less money. those who transport it, those who peddle it, those who store it. The sacrifice in earnings will be countered by an increase in stability by again, falling within the law.

    Money spent on law enforcement could go down, but history shows that unlike private sector, government doesn't spend less money simply because they can, so I would asterisk this one.

    Given the above, the end user can expect to spend less money on it, giving them more disposable income. I'm going to throw out the stereo type that pot users on the whole are at the low end of the wage scale, so I see this as a net boon to consumer spending patterns

    As for how to eventually add up all the above, and claim a bubble will form from pot usage is something you have not articulated at all.
    Also, I have never read anything that leads me to believe that growing a weed is difficult. I suspect that many smokers would simply cultivate their own little patch. I bet a couple dozen plants, maybe a 50 - 100 sq ft plot, would keep the average smoker good til the next season. [If you're like me and can't tell, I pulled those numbers out of nowhere.] If you have better data feel free to share.

    But, just as I frequent the farmers market and rarely grow my own fruit and vegetables, I suspect that many people would still pay someone to grow it for them.
    With more competition on the supply side, the prices and profit margins should fall. Of course the loss of the huge govt subsidy we give to the trafickers of illicit drugs would be gone too. But that goes w/o saying.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Also, I have never read anything that leads me to believe that growing a weed is difficult. I suspect that many smokers would simply cultivate their own little patch. I bet a couple dozen plants, maybe a 50 - 100 sq ft plot, would keep the average smoker good til the next season. [If you're like me and can't tell, I pulled those numbers out of nowhere.] If you have better data feel free to share.

    But, just as I frequent the farmers market and rarely grow my own fruit and vegetables, I suspect that many people would still pay someone to grow it for them.
    With more competition on the supply side, the prices and profit margins should fall. Of course the loss of the huge govt subsidy we give to the trafickers of illicit drugs would be gone too. But that goes w/o saying.
    Growing tobacco is pretty easy too. Growing good tobacco, curing and preparing it for smoking properly is not all that easy. You can grow smokable pot pretty easily. To grow something of high quality that tastes good and does not require smoking lots of extra plant matter is a little more difficult on a small scale and you would not be able to do it very affordably. There would certainly be some hobbyists, though.

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    Re: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Still just laughing at your empty pretense and condescension. I don't need your advice on anything. Keep your two cents, they are overvalued.
    suit yourself.

    Prices don't cover the losses created by the illegal market.
    losses aren't a guarantee, so it doesn't matter in the aggregate.

    The wealth is not hidden.
    The reason it is called black market is that it operates in the dark.

    It is being destroyed by the violent nature of the black market.
    If this were actually true, people wouldn't take the risk. some people do profit heavily, which is the primary motivation that causes the drug war to not prevail.


    Do you honestly believe that black markets create as much wealth as a free market?
    Depends on the market dynamics. you keep saying free market, but tobacco and alcohol are hardly a free market.

    you think heroin would be introduced freely into the market?


    I think the funny thing though, is you aren't talking about a market bubble specific to the topic at hand.

    Yes, the FED as a whole creates bubbles by manipulating interest rates. Whether pot is legal or not, that is something the Fed is going to continue to do. Why that even factors into concerns about drug policy is beyond me.

    I assumed you were actually talking about something relevant to this issue and the artificial bubbles created by government intervention in the market.

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    Re: Ron Paul, Barney Frank team up to legalize marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Also, I have never read anything that leads me to believe that growing a weed is difficult. I suspect that many smokers would simply cultivate their own little patch. I bet a couple dozen plants, maybe a 50 - 100 sq ft plot, would keep the average smoker good til the next season. [If you're like me and can't tell, I pulled those numbers out of nowhere.] If you have better data feel free to share.
    I imagine costs would go down so far that most people would continue to be consumers just because they would find it cheaper and easier to acquire then they have today.

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